Nanavira.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Ben » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:00 am

Thanks Chris

That looks like, yet another, excellent article by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
I'll continue to read it with great interest when I get some time.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16223
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:05 am

Greetings Ben,

To repeat something I said here ( viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4420&p=67428#p67428 )

It would be best to read Nanavira's original, then Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique, and then the critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique that's available on the Nanavira website.

If you do it in that order, you'll actually have a proper chance to see and understand what each person is talking about, on their own merits.

If you jump into the chronology part way through you may not be giving people a fair listening to, and merely using it to reinforce your own existing views (which won't do anyone any good). I started with Bhikkhu Bodhi's version, based on someone's recommendation, and now regret doing so. At the time I was looking for the learned Bhikkhu Bodhi to come in, be Theravada's saffron knight in shining armour, and defend the "true Dhamma" against an alleged heretic. In retrospect, I see now that's a terrible and incredibly immature way to approach the Dhamma. Whatever anyone says should be considered on its own merits, with an open mind, assessed against the suttas, and not used as a tool to reinforce or back up ones own prejudices against the unknown. What better way to stay a puthujjana than to cling tenaciously to your views?

Metta,
Retro. :)

P.S. Since posting the above in the aforementioned topic, there have been even more rebuttals to Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique made (this time in 'forumspace') at...

Paticcasamuppada II: In which Bhikkhu Bodhi Debates at Nanavira's Ghost, and Mettiko Bhikkhu rebuts
http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.co ... pic=3022.0

Personally I'm not really interesting in critiquing Bodhi beyond saying that his worldview and Nanavira's worldview "talk past each other", as should be obvious to anyone who has spent time reading both authors. Lots of arrows flying around, but little consensus over whether anything actually hits the target. All the more reason to read these pieces of work chronologically, IMO.
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14726
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Wind » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:02 am

Hi

Can anyone give me a link to Nanavira's post-stream entry writings? I love to read what insight he might have to share.
User avatar
Wind
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:10 pm

Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:17 am

Greetings Wind,

Wind wrote:Can anyone give me a link to Nanavira's post-stream entry writings? I love to read what insight he might have to share.

Notes and Letters both span 1960-65.

Both are online in full at http://nanavira.110mb.com/

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14726
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Ben » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:22 am

Thanks Paul for that.
I'll put Ven Nanavira's writings on the top of my list and make an effort to find the time to read his "Notes on Dhamma".
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16223
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:02 am

cooran wrote:"Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance forms a meritorious sa"nkhaara, consciousness goes on towards merit. If he forms a demeritorious sa"nkhaara, consciousness goes on towards demerit. If he forms an imperturbable sa"nkhaara, consciousness goes on towards the imperturbable."

Greetings

I would suggest Bhikkhu Bodhi is incorrect here according to the suttas (and will naturally be incorrect in whatever other salient points he makes). He is simply following the Commentary position but is inconsistent with the suttas.

The Bhumija Sutta he is quoting from is a one-off sutta amongst all suttas. In this sutta, there is a discussion about the words 'happiness' and 'suffering' (sukhadukkhaṃ) as held by other religious groups. This is similar to the discussion found in the Tittha Sutta.

Although the Sariputta advises Bhumija happiness and suffering are felt due to contact, in no place in the Pali is the word vedana found. The only word found is 'vedisa' or 'vedita', which means 'to be felt', which Thanissaro renders as 'sensitive to'.

This is not consistant with the salient teachings on dependent origination, which describe vedana as follows:
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, vedanā? Chayime, bhikkhave, vedanākāyā – cakkhusamphassajā vedanā, sotasamphassajā vedanā, ghānasamphassajā vedanā, jivhāsamphassajā vedanā, kāyasamphassajā vedanā, manosamphassajā vedanā. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, vedanā.

"And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling.

Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta

In summary, it is incorrect to use the Bhumija Sutta as the basis of analysising dependent origination because this sutta is not explicity about dependent origination. This sutta is about the results of mundane kamma, that is, either a happy result or an unhappy result.

The proper analysis of dependent origination is found in the Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, which is consistent with the scores of other suttas.

The Pali of the Bhumija Sutta is below. A simple word search finds the word vedanā is not present. Only 'vedisi' in 'phassā paṭisaṃvedissantīti'.

25. Sāvatthiyaṃ viharati. Atha kho āyasmā bhūmijo sāyanhasamayaṃ paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito yenāyasmā sāriputto tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmatā sāriputtena saddhiṃ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṃ kathaṃ sāraṇīyaṃ vītisāretvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā bhūmijo āyasmantaṃ sāriputtaṃ etadavoca –

‘‘Santāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti. Santi panāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti. Santāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṃkatañca paraṃkatañca sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti. Santi panāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṃkāraṃ aparaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti. Idha no, āvuso sāriputta, bhagavā kiṃvādī kimakkhāyī , kathaṃ byākaramānā ca mayaṃ vuttavādino ceva bhagavato assāma, na ca bhagavantaṃ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyāma, dhammassa cānudhammaṃ byākareyyāma, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgaccheyyā’’ti?

‘‘Paṭiccasamuppannaṃ kho, āvuso, sukhadukkhaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā. Kiṃ paṭicca? Phassaṃ paṭicca. Iti vadaṃ vuttavādī ceva bhagavato assa, na ca bhagavantaṃ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṃ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgaccheyya.

‘‘Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti, tadapi phassapaccayā. Yepi te…pe… yepi te…pe… yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṃkāraṃ aparaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti, tadapi phassapaccayā.

‘‘Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṃvedissantīti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. Yepi te…pe. … yepi te…pe… yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṃkāraṃ aparaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṃvedissantīti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjatī’’ti.

Assosi kho āyasmā ānando āyasmato sāriputtassa āyasmatā bhūmijena saddhiṃ imaṃ kathāsallāpaṃ. Atha kho āyasmā ānando yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando yāvatako āyasmato sāriputtassa āyasmatā bhūmijena saddhiṃ ahosi kathāsallāpo taṃ sabbaṃ bhagavato ārocesi.

‘‘Sādhu sādhu, ānanda, yathā taṃ sāriputto sammā byākaramāno byākareyya. Paṭiccasamuppannaṃ kho, ānanda, sukhadukkhaṃ vuttaṃ mayā. Kiṃ paṭicca? Phassaṃ paṭicca. Iti vadaṃ vuttavādī ceva me assa, na ca maṃ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṃ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgaccheyya.

‘‘Tatrānanda , ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā. Yepi te…pe… yepi te…pe… yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṃkāraṃ aparaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.

‘‘Tatrānanda , ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṃkataṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṃvedissantīti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati. Yepi te…pe… yepi te…pe… yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇākammavādā asayaṃkāraṃ aparaṃkāraṃ adhiccasamuppannaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṃvedissantīti netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjati.

‘‘Kāye vā hānanda, sati kāyasañcetanāhetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Vācāya vā hānanda, sati vacīsañcetanāhetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Mane vā hānanda, sati manosañcetanāhetu uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ avijjāpaccayā ca.

‘‘Sāmaṃ vā taṃ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti, yaṃpaccayāssa [yaṃpaccayāya (syā. kaṃ.), yaṃpaccayā yaṃ (ka.)] taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Pare vā taṃ [pare vāssa taṃ (sī. pī.), pare vāyataṃ (syā. kaṃ.)], ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharonti, yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Sampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Asampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

‘‘Sāmaṃ vā taṃ, ānanda, vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Pare vā taṃ, ānanda, vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharonti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Sampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda…pe… asampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda, vacīsaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

‘‘Sāmaṃ vā taṃ, ānanda, manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Pare vā taṃ, ānanda, manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharonti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Sampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda…pe… asampajāno vā taṃ, ānanda, manosaṅkhāraṃ abhisaṅkharoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ.

‘‘Imesu , ānanda, dhammesu avijjā anupatitā. Avijjāya tveva, ānanda, asesavirāganirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Sā vācā na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. So mano na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkhaṃ. Khettaṃ taṃ na hoti…pe… vatthu taṃ na hoti…pe… āyatanaṃ taṃ na hoti…pe… adhikaraṇaṃ taṃ na hoti yaṃpaccayāssa taṃ uppajjati ajjhattaṃ sukhadukkha’’nti. Pañcamaṃ.

Also, Thanissaro's rendering: "From ignorance as a requisite condition, then either of one's own accord one fabricates bodily fabrication...etc" is not found in the Pali. Bhikkhu Bodhi naturally does not translate the sutta in this way (see Wisdom Publication).

With metta

:smile:
Last edited by Yundi on Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
Yundi
 

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:25 am

Yundi wrote:Although the Sariputta advises Bhumija happiness and suffering are felt due to contact, in no place in the Pali is the word vedana found. The only word found is 'vedisa' or 'vedita', which means 'to be felt', which Thanissaro renders as 'sensitive to'. ... This sutta is about the results of mundane kamma, that is, either a happy result or an unhappy result.

Greetings again

My analysis is confirmed by the Maha-salayatanika Sutta, which states:
‘‘Tassa sārattassa saṃyuttassa sammūḷhassa assādānupassino viharato āyatiṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā upacayaṃ gacchanti. Taṇhā cassa ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, sā cassa pavaḍḍhati. Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti; kāyikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti; kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti. So kāyadukkhampi cetodukkhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.

"For him — infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

‘‘Tassa asārattassa asaṃyuttassa asammūḷhassa ādīnavānupassino viharato āyatiṃ pañcupādānakkhandhā apacayaṃ gacchanti. Taṇhā cassa ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī , sā cassa pahīyati. Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi darathā pahīyanti; kāyikāpi santāpā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pahīyanti; kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pahīyanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pahīyanti. So kāyasukhampi cetosukhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.

"For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution. The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that — is abandoned by him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances are abandoned. His bodily torments & mental torments are abandoned. His bodily distresses & mental distresses are abandoned. He is sensitive both to ease of body & ease of awareness.

The 'dukha' (stress) and 'sukha' (ease) above do not refer to vedana. The simply refer to the happiness or suffering that is the result of actions.

The Pali word 'vedati' again exists in the Pali, at the very end of the dependent origination process (rather than as vedana at the 7th link).

In summation, Bhikkhu Bodhi's analysis does not accord with the suttas and is easily & simply shown to be incorrect.

With metta

:smile:
Yundi
 

Re: Nanavira.

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:03 am

Hi Yundi,

Sorry, I must be missing something about your post:
Yundi wrote:
cooran wrote:"Bhikkhus, if a person immersed in ignorance forms a meritorious sa"nkhaara, consciousness goes on towards merit. If he forms a demeritorious sa"nkhaara, consciousness goes on towards demerit. If he forms an imperturbable sa"nkhaara, consciousness goes on towards the imperturbable."

Greetings

I would suggest Bhikkhu Bodhi is incorrect here according to the suttas (and will naturally be incorrect in whatever other salient points he makes). He is simply following the Commentary position but is inconsistent with the suttas.

The Bhumija Sutta he is quoting from is a one-off sutta amongst all suttas. In this sutta, there is a discussion about the words 'happiness' and 'suffering' (sukhadukkhaṃ) as held by other religious groups. This is similar to the discussion found in the Tittha Sutta.

Although the Sariputta advises Bhumija happiness and suffering are felt due to contact, in no place in the Pali is the word vedana found. ...

I don't understand what you are getting at. Could you explain the relevance of this to Bhikkhu Bodhi's discussion?

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10537
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Nanavira.

Postby atulo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:44 am

cooran wrote:The article by Bhikkhu Bodhi :twothumbsup: may be of interest also - posted in two parts:

As you presented you give a great respect towards Bhikkhu Bodhi, therefore I assume that you take commentaries (etc) too for granted as valuable. I do not think that any alternative approach will be accepted by you. I have respect for Ven. Bodhi: a nice man, and I quite like some his writings, but I am still surprised why some venerate Ven. Bodhi so highly, and as authoritative presenter of the Buddha's Teaching. But Ven. Bodhi claimed being non-ariya. This is just my wonder, and I do not like to go too much into such discussion here.

The whole reflection of Ven. Mettiko can be found here: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=244. (I will write to Ven. Nyanasuci to make the link more visible on their websites. It was difficult to find it.)

Steven Batcherlor changed his view on Ven. Nanavira. Read his new book Confessions of the Buddhist Atheist. He regards Ven. Nanavira very respectfully. I heard that also from Steven's friend.

I fully agree with Retro, therefore I will quote him here:
retrofuturist wrote:It would be best to read Nanavira's original, then Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique, and then the critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique that's available on the Nanavira website.

If you do it in that order, you'll actually have a proper chance to see and understand what each person is talking about, on their own merits.

If you jump into the chronology part way through you may not be giving people a fair listening to, and merely using it to reinforce your own existing views (which won't do anyone any good). I started with Bhikkhu Bodhi's version, based on someone's recommendation, and now regret doing so. At the time I was looking for the learned Bhikkhu Bodhi to come in, be Theravada's saffron knight in shining armour, and defend the "true Dhamma" against an alleged heretic. In retrospect, I see now that's a terrible and incredibly immature way to approach the Dhamma. Whatever anyone says should be considered on its own merits, with an open mind, assessed against the suttas, and not used as a tool to reinforce or back up ones own prejudices against the unknown. What better way to stay a puthujjana than to cling tenaciously to your views?

Very wise, Ben, that you will read Notes on Dhamma and other writings of ven. Nanavira, before B Bodhi. It would be too bad kamma to judge somebody wrongly, especially if he/she is an ariyan.
User avatar
atulo
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:22 pm

Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:55 am

atulo wrote:[As you presented you give a great respect towards Bhikkhu Bodhi, therefore I assume that you take commentaries (etc) too for granted as valuable. I do not think that any alternative approach will be accepted by you. I have respect for Ven. Bodhi: a nice man, and I quite like some his writings, but I am still surprised why some venerate Ven. Bodhi so highly, and as authoritative presenter of the Buddha's Teaching. But Ven. Bodhi claimed being non-ariya. This is just my wonder, and I do not like to go too much into such discussion here.
There is a lot of Nanavira veneration going on here. Based upon what? Your belief - and this all you can have - that he was a streamwinner? Does being a streamwinner, assuming he was one but cannot prove, make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?

And who cares what Stephan Batchelor thinks about Nanavira.

And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nanavira.

Postby atulo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:There is a lot of Nanavira veneration going on here. Based upon what? Your belief - and this all you can have - that he was a streamwinner? Does being a streamwinner, assuming he was one but cannot prove, make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?
I can repeat only that: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4791#p73757
User avatar
atulo
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:22 pm

Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:15 am

atulo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:There is a lot of Nanavira veneration going on here. Based upon what? Your belief - and this all you can have - that he was a streamwinner? Does being a streamwinner, assuming he was one but cannot prove, make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?
I can repeat only that: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 791#p73757
That is all well and goodthat you venerate him, but you cannot know he is a streamwinner, but whether he is or not, the questions still remain: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?


Also: And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:37 am

mikenz66 wrote:I don't understand what you are getting at. Could you explain the relevance of this to Bhikkhu Bodhi's discussion?

Dear Mike

Bhikkhu Bodhi's view is the sankhara at the 2nd link are bodily intentions (cetana), verbal intentions & mental intentions, that is, kāyasañcetanāhetu, vacīsañcetanāhetu & manosañcetanāhetu.

Whereas Navira's view is the sankhara at the 2nd link are the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara, as defined in MN 44 as the breathing in & out, vitakka & vicara and perception & feeling.

In the Pali, cetana or intention occurs after perception & after contact (instead of before), as follows:

In dependence on the sensuality element there arises sensual perception; in dependence on the sensual perception there arises sensual intention; in dependence on the sensual intention there arises sensual desire; in dependence on the sensual desire there arises sensual passion; in dependence on the sensual passion there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a sensual quest, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

In dependence on the ill will element there arises perception of ill will...

In dependence on the cruelty element there arises perception of harming...

In dependence on the renunciation element there arises perception of renunciation...

In dependence on the non-ill will element there arises perception of non-ill will...

In dependence on the harmlessness element there arises perception of harmlessness. In dependence on the perception of harmlessness there arises intention of harmlessness; in dependence on intention of harmlessness there arises desire for harmlessness; in dependence on desire for harmlessness there arises passion for harmlessness; in dependence on passion for harmlessness there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a quest for harmlessness, the instructed noble disciple conducts himself rightly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

SN 14.12 (no link)

Again:
"And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world?

The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

Maha-satipatthana Sutta

Bhikkhu Bodhi is citing the Bhumija Sutta, where the terms happiness & suffering are used to desribe the last link of dependent origination or dependent cessation.

In other words, using SN 14.12 as a reference, the happiness & suffering referred to in the Bhumija Sutta is that which arises after a person conducts themself wrongly or rightly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

This right & wrong conduct occurs after contact rather than before contact. For example, before there is the intention to kill or steal and killing or stealing itself, there must occur ignorance, sankhara, contact, feeling & perception. The perception "my enemy" or "riches & treasures". The intention to kill or steal occurs with craving (tanha) and the action (karma) of killing or stealing starts with becoming. The intention to kill or steal cannot arise without perception.

The kāyasañcetanāhetu, vacīsañcetanāhetu & manosañcetanāhetu Bhikkhu Bodhi asserts is the 2nd link in fact occurs between the 7th and 8th link, as shown in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta quoted above.

SN 14.12 clearly states intention occurs after perception and not before perception. MN 18 states perception occurs after contact & feeling and not before.
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.

MN 18

Therefore, although Bhikkhu Bodhi's view is widely accepted in Buddhism, especially in the Commentary tradition, it does not refute Nanavira because the suttas define the 2nd link as the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara, which are defined as the breathing in & out, vitakka & vicara and perception & feeling in places, such as MN 44 and MN 118.

With metta

:smile:
Last edited by Yundi on Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
Yundi
 

Re: Nanavira.

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:43 am

Hi Yundi,

I didn't take Bhikkhu Bodhi's argument to be based on the details of dependent origination.

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10537
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:51 am

cooran wrote:A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira Thera's "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada" - Bhikkhu Bodhi


:smile:
Yundi
 

Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:53 am

There is something remarkably annoying about this Ven Bodhi vs Ven Nanavira business here, and the annoying aspect is coming primarily from the Nanavira-wallahs. Ven Bodhi, contrary to what has been implied here has questioned the commenatries. He is not slavish to them. The claim that Nanavira is a streamwinner carries no objective basis for Nanavira's position over Ven Bodhi's. It is a unprovable belief by those who hold to it.

If you guys are going to argue against Ven Bodhi's position, then do so based upon careful scholarship, not pious veneration.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:55 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.

I'm guessing you mean this - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=71

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14726
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.

I'm guessing you mean this - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=71

Metta,
Retro. :)
That is not it. There was a much longer essay, which was online and probably on the website linked, but - alas - no longer to be found. Vacchagota, the atta-wallah on the dead grey forum, referenced it as an argument against taking dhamma in sabbe dhamma anatta as refering to nibbana. I would like to see that essay again and get a bit of info from the Nanavira -wallahs about it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Nanavira.

Postby atulo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:18 pm

Dear Tilt,

I think you are getting a bit carried away. My faith on Ven. Nanavira has a similar 'structure' as my faith on the Buddha. Then, try to question the Buddha.

I think now, that it is not good idea to discuss Ven. Nanavira and Ven. Bodhi together. That happened many times, and brought unpleasant feelings. The same was during Ven. Nanavira's time. He was respected and well treated by (probably) all western monks and also sinhalese monks, but only one western monk was not able to look into Ven. Nanvira's eyes, and that was Ven. Nyanaponika: he openly expressed his disagreements with Ven. Nanavira. And Ven. Bodhi is following his teacher's path. Orthodox tradition and Ven. Nanavira are different things, and it is pointless to try to find agreements. They have complitelly different perspective.

I wish you all the best in your practice, and I sincerely hope that you will realize Dhamma in this life time.

With warm regards.
User avatar
atulo
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:22 pm

Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:24 pm

atulo wrote:Dear Tilt,

I think you are getting a bit carried away. My faith on Ven. Nanavira has a similar 'structure' as my faith on the Buddha. Then, try to question the Buddha.
You are making my point here.

I think now, that it is not good idea to discuss Ven. Nanavira and Ven. Bodhi together.
I am not the one who brought them up together, but take a look at your remarks, which also make my point.

Interestingly, however, you keep ignoring my question to you: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests