Nanavira.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:38 pm

atulo wrote:, but only one western monk was not able to look into Ven. Nanvira's eyes, and that was Ven. Nyanaponika:
And this is supposed to be literally true story? Told and witnessed by whom?

. And Ven. Bodhi is following his teacher's path. Orthodox tradition and Ven. Nanavira are different things, and it is pointless to try to find agreements. They have complitelly different perspective..

So, Nanavira claimed of himself that he was a streamwinner. Now, whatever he says after his supposed awakening is the truly true understanding of the Dhamma and others do not quite get it right? Is that the case?

Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira. And we can point to others. Why favor Nanavira over them? Are they all deluded, and the only one who is not is Nanavira?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby cooran » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Hello all,

My understanding is that Nanavira Thera committed suicide in 1965 (aged 45 years) due to having having painful amoebiasis and a nervous disorder. If this is incorrect in any way, please correct.

amoebiasis
Definition
Amoebiasis is an infection of the large intestines caused by Entamoeba histolytica, a single-celled parasite.

What is going on in the body?
The large intestine, or colon, is infected after cysts are eaten. The parasite can then invade the colon, causing it to become inflamed.

What are the signs and symptoms of the infection?
The illness may produce no symptoms at all, or may produce only very mild ones. The symptoms may be so vague, they are not noticed, and may include:
episodes of diarrhoea and constipation
flatulence, or excess gas
abdominal distress, which may include cramping abdominal pain
mucous and blood in the stool
fever

What are the causes and risks of the infection?
Direct transmission of amoebiasis occurs through contact with infected stool. The infection is also a sexually transmitted disease, particularly among male homosexuals. Fruits and vegetables can be contaminated when they are grown in soil fertilised by human stool, washed in polluted water, or prepared by someone who is infected.

Amoebiasis is more common and more severe in subtropical and tropical areas. It occurs more often when living conditions are crowded, sanitation is poor, and nutrition is inadequate.

What can be done to prevent the infection?
A person should eat only food that is unlikely to be contaminated, especially when traveling to tropical regions. This means keeping to food that is well cooked and water that is bottled. Practicing safer sex will also help prevent the spread of amoebiasis.

How is the infection diagnosed?
Amoebiasis is usually identified by examining the stool. Several samples may need to be tested. Antibody titre blood tests may also be ordered.

What are the long-term effects of the infection?
A very severe amoebiasis infection can lead to perforation or rupture of the colon. Rarely, the infection involves other organs in the body, such as the liver, brain, or lung.

What are the risks to others?
Someone who excretes cysts into his or her stool puts others at risk for amoebiasis. Careful hand-washing and good sanitation help prevent the spread of this infection.

What are the treatments for the infection?
Medications such as ioloquinol, paromomycin, and diloxanide are used to kill the parasites in the intestines. Other medications, such as metronidazole, may be used to kill the organisms that have invaded the tissue. Surgery may be needed for complications like perforation of the bowel.

What are the side effects of the treatments?
Side effects depend on the medication used. Metronidazole often causes nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea. Surgery carries a risk of bleeding, infection, and allergic reaction to anaesthesia.

What happens after treatment for the infection?
Amoebiasis is usually cured with medication, and the person can go back to normal activities.

How is the infection monitored?
Stool samples are examined 1, 3, and 6 months after treatment to be sure the person is free of the parasite. Any new or worsening symptoms should be reported to the doctor.

Author: Danielle Zerr, MD
Reviewer: HealthAnswers Australia Medical Review Panel
Editor: Dr David Taylor, Chief Medical Officer HealthAnswers Australia

with metta
Chris
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby Aloka » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:28 pm

Are they the treatments which were available in the place where he was living in the early 1960's ?
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:36 pm

Hi Chris,
cooran wrote:Hello all,
My understanding is that Nanavira Thera committed suicide in 1965 (aged 45 years) due to having having painful amoebiasis and a nervous disorder.

Ñānavīra Thera's thoughts about commiting suicide:
I am sure that you are already well aware that the problems confronting me at the present time arise from my past amoebiasis and not from this more recent complaint of satyriasis (which has only aggravated the situation). The ravages of amoebiasis play havoc with the practice of mental concentration, and if I cannot practise mental concentration I have no further use for this life. The idea of suicide first occurred to me nearly two years ago, and since then I have watched it becoming more definite and more frequent. Against this background it was more or less inevitable that my present complaint, when it appeared, should offer itself as a suitable occasion and excuse for putting the idea of suicide into practice. Although I wrote to you in my last letter that I was oscillating between the extremes of disrobing and suicide, there is no doubt at all (barring accidents) which I should choose. For me at least, the more intelligent of these two courses of action is suicide; a return to lay life would be pure weakness, and in any case I should be miserable. (How should I get my living? I should have to marry a rich and no doubt hideous widow in order to keep going. Quite unthinkable. Or perhaps I should take up with some lady of easy virtue who would earn enough to support us both. But I believe that this sort of arrangement is not considered very respectable.)


tiltbillings wrote:Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira.

Hi tilt,
I would be curious to know what kind of differences you are talking about in Ven. Maha Boowa's understanding of the Dhamma compared to Ven. Nanavira?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:10 pm

Hi Acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira.

Hi tilt,
I would be curious to know what kind of differences you are talking about in Ven. Maha Boowa's understanding of the Dhamma compared to Ven. Nanavira?

I take this as simply a general point. I see no reason to take Ven Nanavira's opinions any more seriously than a multitude of other opinions from ancient and modern teachers and commentators.

We all have our own backgrounds, teachers, preferences, etc.. Personally, I read forums such as this because I'm interested in learning about how others view the Dhamma, but, to be blunt I simply ignore any claims that the poster (or the Bhikkhus and scholars marshalled in support of the poster's position) has proved that he/she knows The True Dhamma That The Buddha Taught, and those that prefer other interpretations are mistaken. In all such cases, one could pull out erudite commentary from all manner of competing sources that would sound just as convincing.

Not that I object to erudite arguments. They are highly entertaining, and sometimes very informative. I simply object to the assumption by some members that by such argumentation they have actually proved their opinions to be the only viable approach.

Mike
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:02 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira. And we can point to others. Why favor Nanavira over them? Are they all deluded, and the only one who is not is Nanavira?

Speaking for myself, neither Nanavira Thera nor Maha Boowa (nor anyone for that matter) gets any "bonus credit" for any attainments. All post-Sutta writings are assessed for compatibility with the suttas. It just happens to the case that what is said by Maha Boowa conforms with the suttas far less than Nanavira Thera.

As for the issue of scholarship you raise elsewhere, Nanavira Thera didn't take himself to be a scholar and did not have much time for the disinterested enquiry of scholars. From the introduction to Notes...

The principal aim of these Notes on Dhamma is to point out certain current misinterpretations, mostly traditional, of the Pali Suttas, and to offer in their place something certainly less easy but perhaps also less inadequate. These Notes assume, therefore, that the reader is (or is prepared to become) familiar with the original texts, and in Pali (for even the most competent translations sacrifice some essential accuracy to style, and the rest are seriously misleading). They assume, also, that the reader's sole interest in the Pali Suttas is a concern for his own welfare. The reader is presumed to be subjectively engaged with an anxious problem, the problem of his existence, which is also the problem of his suffering. There is therefore nothing in these pages to interest the professional scholar, for whom the question of personal existence does not arise; for the scholar's whole concern is to eliminate or ignore the individual point of view in an effort to establish the objective truth -- a would-be impersonal synthesis of public facts. The scholar's essentially horizontal view of things, seeking connexions in space and time, and his historical approach to the texts, disqualify him from any possibility of understanding a Dhamma that the Buddha himself has called akālika, 'timeless'. Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:04 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira.

Hi tilt,
I would be curious to know what kind of differences you are talking about in Ven. Maha Boowa's understanding of the Dhamma compared to Ven. Nanavira?
Do you think that Nanavira would agree with Maha Boowa's idiosyncratic use of citta?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:14 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Do you think that Nanavira would agree with Maha Boowa's idiosyncratic use of citta?

No, he wouldn't. It you see his note on Nama and Vinnana, you'll see why...

Nama
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... emid=73#nc

Vinnana
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=81

Mind you, he didn't agree with the Abhidhammic use of it either... see his note on Citta...

Citta
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=69

Both notes are quite brief and shouldn't take you long to review.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:17 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira. And we can point to others. Why favor Nanavira over them? Are they all deluded, and the only one who is not is Nanavira?

Speaking for myself, neither Nanavira Thera nor Maha Boowa (nor anyone for that matter) gets any "bonus credit" for any attainments.
And that is the point. Just because a claim of attainment has been made adds no thing to the argument. The dismissal of Ven Bodhi we have seen above because he supposedly has no attainment is fallacious.

As for the issue of scholarship you raise elsewhere, Nanavira Thera didn't take himself to be a scholar and did not have much time for the disinterested enquiry of scholars. From the introduction to Notes...
A scholar does not have to be "disinterested." If one compares Ven Nanananda's use of texts with Nanavira's use of the texts, I'll take the careful assessments and conclusions made by the scholar practitioner.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:23 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
As for the issue of scholarship you raise elsewhere, Nanavira Thera didn't take himself to be a scholar and did not have much time for the disinterested enquiry of scholars. From the introduction to Notes...
A scholar does not have to be "disinterested." If one compares Ven Nanananda's use of texts with Nanavira's use of the texts, I'll take the careful assessments and conclusions made by the scholar practitioner.

As you suggest, the "horizontal" and "vertical" approaches need not be mutually exclusive. Arguably someone like Bhikkhu Nanananda has adopted both.

Nanavira Thera was explaining in that Preface simply that he will be presenting the "vertical" view in Notes on Dhamma and that if it's "horizontal" you're after, you're not going to find too much of that in his Notes. It's necessary to define the two ends of the spectrum before you can look at the angles inbetween.

The pure "horizontal" view is not going to lead to enlightenment (which in its most extreme form is the non-Buddhist Encyclopedia Brittanica writer tasked with the responsibility of writing the article on Buddhism), and I suppose that's the basis for his "vertical" inclination.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:52 am

I am sure that you are already well aware that the problems confronting me at the present time arise from my past amoebiasis and not from this more recent complaint of satyriasis (which has only aggravated the situation). The ravages of amoebiasis play havoc with the practice of mental concentration, and if I cannot practise mental concentration I have no further use for this life. The idea of suicide first occurred to me nearly two years ago, and since then I have watched it becoming more definite and more frequent. Against this background it was more or less inevitable that my present complaint, when it appeared, should offer itself as a suitable occasion and excuse for putting the idea of suicide into practice. Although I wrote to you in my last letter that I was oscillating between the extremes of disrobing and suicide, there is no doubt at all (barring accidents) which I should choose. For me at least, the more intelligent of these two courses of action is suicide; a return to lay life would be pure weakness, and in any case I should be miserable. (How should I get my living? I should have to marry a rich and no doubt hideous widow in order to keep going. Quite unthinkable. Or perhaps I should take up with some lady of easy virtue who would earn enough to support us both. But I believe that this sort of arrangement is not considered very respectable.)

There is significant similarity and significant difference between a stream winner and an arahant. A stream winner is the same as an arahant in they both have tasted the liberation from the cessation of self-view. A stream winner is different from an arahant in that their respective wisdoms are beyond comparison.

Nanavira thoughts of marrying a rich woman and his views about being a layperson are quite disconcerting because there have been many enlightened laypeople in Buddhist history. I may be wrong but his views about laylife & suicide seem to be connected to a firm belief in rebirth.

Nanavira has also given the impression his mind suffered from 'institutionalisation'. It seems his mind was not 'liberated'.

In clinical and abnormal psychology, institutional syndrome refers to deficits or disabilities in social and life skills, which develop after a person has spent a long period living in mental hospitals, prisons or other remote institutions. In other words, individuals in institutions may be deprived (unintentionally) of independence and of responsibility, to the point that once they return to "outside life" they are often unable to manage many of its demands; it has also been argued that institutionalized individuals become psychologically more prone to mental health problems.

The term institutionalization can both be used to the process of committing an individual to a mental hospital or prison or to institutional syndrome; thus the phrase "X is institutionalized" may mean either that X has been placed in an institution, or that X is suffering the psychological effects of having been in an institution for an extended period of time.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


:smile:
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:12 am

tiltbillings wrote:Just because a claim of attainment has been made adds no thing to the argument. The dismissal of Ven Bodhi we have seen above because he supposedly has no attainment is fallacious.

I tend to agree with Tiltbillings here.

If the suttas are used as a standard, both Maha Boowa's non-annica, non-dukkha & non-anatta citta & Bhikkhu Bodhi's views have questionable scholarship.

In the same way, despite what to appear to be deliriums and institutional syndrome, the writings of Nanavira present less questionable scholarship.

With metta

:smile:
Last edited by Yundi on Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby Yundi » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:20 am

cooran wrote:The above definitions, with their strings of synonyms and concrete imagery, clearly indicate that 'birth' refers to biological birth and 'aging-and-death' to biological aging and biological death -- not to the puthujjana's notions "I was born; I will age and die," or "My self was born; my self ages and dies." The textual definitions are perfectly staightforward and unambiguous in meaning, and give no hint that the Buddha had some other idea to convey about the significance of these terms.

The following sutta excerpts make Bhikkhu Bodhi's views questionable. There are many others.

"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

Nakulapita Sutta


"'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing. He has nothing whereby he would be born. Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'

Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta]Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta


:smile:
Last edited by Yundi on Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:51 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:20 am

Greetings Yundi,

Yundi wrote:Nanavira thoughts of marrying a rich woman and his views about being a layperson are quite disconcerting because there have been many enlightened laypeople in Buddhist history.

There is a bit of subtle British humour in what he says, of course, but this...

Yundi wrote:I may be wrong but his views about laylife & suicide seem to be connected to a firm belief in rebirth..

... is indeed true. To that extent Nanavira Thera is an example of someone who recognised dependent origination as a structural (rather than temporal) framework, but at the same time also believed in the "seven lives at most, none in lower realms" stream-winner guarantee of the suttas. I believe he accepted this on faith given the demonstrated accuracy of that which was verifiable here-and-now within the first four nikayas.

Yundi wrote:It seems his mind was not 'liberated'.

Correct. He recognised that he needed to undertake samadhi to develop further but found that he was unable to do so given his medical conditions. Rather than live on, subject to physical temptations unbefitting of a bhikkhu, he decided to bring an end to a chapter that showed few signs of productivity and move to the next.

Personally I'm far more interested in the Dhamma knowledge of Nanavira Thera than the suicide of Nanavira Thera, but unfortunately it seems difficult to divorce the two, in online discussions.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:As you suggest, the "horizontal" and "vertical" approaches need not be mutually exclusive. Arguably someone like Bhikkhu Nanananda has adopted both.
Which is why I find Ven Nanananda a far more reliable and far inspiring source.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:41 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:As you suggest, the "horizontal" and "vertical" approaches need not be mutually exclusive. Arguably someone like Bhikkhu Nanananda has adopted both.
Which is why I find Ven Nanananda a far more reliable and far inspiring source.

By all means, if that is your preference.

In saying that, this doesn't say anything (either positive or negative) about Nanavira Thera's understanding of the Dhamma, nor that one need get all their Dhamma from a single source. If they both have something useful to say, why not consider both? I do. I don't find them to be in conflict whatsoever, either with each other or with the suttas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:As you suggest, the "horizontal" and "vertical" approaches need not be mutually exclusive. Arguably someone like Bhikkhu Nanananda has adopted both.
Which is why I find Ven Nanananda a far more reliable and far inspiring source.

By all means, if that is your preference.

In saying that, this doesn't say anything (either positive or negative) about Nanavira Thera's understanding of the Dhamma, nor that one need get all their Dhamma from a single source. If they both have something useful to say, why not consider both? I do. I don't find them to be in conflict whatsoever.
It has been years and years since I have read Nanavira and I did not find him all that interesting then and when I read him now, even less so, but then I do not expect or require others to agree with me. Part of what I am expressing here is the rather off-putting "veneration" of Navavira that gets expressed in disparaging Ven Bodhi, as we see above, for example.

I'd like the Nanavira-wallahs, such as atulo, here to clarify: Is Nanavira's understanding the only correct way of approaching Dhamma understanding? What if another streamwinner says something different from Nanavira?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:57 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Part of what I am expressing here is the rather off-putting "veneration" of Navavira that gets expressed in disparaging Ven Bodhi, as we see above, for example.

One might well ask what Bhikkhu Bodhi has to do about a topic on Nanavira Thera. Yet, Bhikkhu Bodhi took it upon himself to argue with the ghost of Nanavira Thera, and Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique tends to continually get thrust into any discussion on Nanavira Thera. Much like the matter of Nanavira Thera's suicide, it's unfortunately another distraction away from what he actually wrote on the Dhamma from 1960 onwards. I for one would be keen to discuss the Dhamma as presented by Nanavira Thera, should it be possible to do so.

tiltbillings wrote:I'd like the Nanavira-wallahs, such as atulo, here to clarify: Is Nanavira's understanding the only correct way of approaching Dhamma understanding? What if another streamwinner says something different from Nanavira?

I would suggest that's something best addressed on a case-by-case basis, as done earlier regarding Maha Boowa's take on citta. A blanket response is going to be unproductive.

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:24 am

retrofuturist wrote: A blanket response is going to be unproductive.

True. And agreement on the relative merits of these various Venerables is never going to happen... :popcorn:



At least, not in this life... :tongue:


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:51 am

retrofuturist wrote: Yet, Bhikkhu Bodhi took it upon himself to argue with the ghost of Nanavira Thera, and Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique tends to continually get thrust into any discussion on Nanavira Thera.
You are actually making my point here: "argue with the ghost of Nanavira". There is something a bit dismissive about that . It is not at all unreasonable for Ven Bodhi to offer a critique of Nanavira's point of view. It would have been nice had Nanavira been alive so that he could offer a rejoinder, but a proxy for Nanavira took it upon himself to do so. This is all good, assuming that all the parties involved stayed to the issues of teachings being discussed/debated. There can be a great deal of value in such exchanges.

Much like the matter of Nanavira Thera's suicide, it's unfortunately another distraction away from what he actually wrote on the Dhamma from 1960 onwards. I for one would be keen to discuss the Dhamma as presented by Nanavira Thera, should it be possible to do so.
Well, he is the one, after all, who killed himself. While it does not have any real bearing on his arguments, it does raise other questions. If one wants a discussion about Nanavira's teaching points, spell it out in the OP what the parameters of the discussion are going to be.

you][quote="tiltbillings wrote:I'd like the Nanavira-wallahs, such as atulo, here to clarify: Is Nanavira's understanding the only correct way of approaching Dhamma understanding? What if another streamwinner says something different from Nanavira?

I would suggest that's something best addressed on a case-by-case basis, as done earlier regarding Maha Boowa's take on citta. A blanket response is going to be unproductive.
Not at all. The point is a claim of streamwinner-ness carries no weight given that the same claims can be made of others who may differ from Nanavira's point of view.
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