Nanavira.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:56 am

Just to add, it is a bit annoying to have people say that Buddhadasa, Nanavira, or whomever else really has it in hand and poop on Vens Bodhi, Nyanaponika and whomever else who does not toe the particular line imagined of whatever particular teacher.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:35 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Just to add, it is a bit annoying to have people say that Buddhadasa, Nanavira, or whomever else really has it in hand and poop on Vens Bodhi, Nyanaponika and whomever else who does not toe the particular line imagined of whatever particular teacher.

It works in both directions, though... hence the benefit derived from discussing the Dhamma instead of the person.

I know sometimes people are surprised when I might endorse something ven Buddhaghosa (for example) says, even though I might not have agreed with him elsewhere. I do not see the point in bringing the personalities into it... what matters is the Dhamma they knew and the Dhamma they taught. We can all evaluate what they say against our own criteria, whatever that might be, and it would be nice if the criteria applied was not simply who they are/were and what party line they followed. My respect for vens. Nanavira and Nanananda mentioned earlier is simply because of evaluating their words against my criteria (primarily the four great references of the Maha-parinibbana Sutta, and my own experience/reason), their words always come out looking accurate. If they said something duff, I wouldn't turn a blind eye simply because of respect for their other ideas. (Though I will disregard Nanavira Thera's pre-1960 works, at his request... everyone deserves a chance to admit they were wrong).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Just to add, it is a bit annoying to have people say that Buddhadasa, Nanavira, or whomever else really has it in hand and poop on Vens Bodhi, Nyanaponika and whomever else who does not toe the particular line imagined of whatever particular teacher.

It works in both directions, though... hence the benefit derived from discussing the Dhamma instead of the person.
I have never seen those who like Ven Nyanaponika get ugly as some followers of other monks. There is simply much in this thread that is unfortunate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:55 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:I have never seen those who like Ven Nyanaponika get ugly as some followers of other monks.

Ven Nyanaponika has indeed written some good things on the Dhamma... I guess though that being 'orthodox' makes one's life easier, much like being a white middle-aged male is supposedly easier too. Those who feel marginalized often act like marginalized people. It may explain some of what you see.

tiltbillings wrote:There is simply much in this thread that is unfortunate.

Agreed, but it is what it is. The best we can do is to try and understand the viewpoints of others and cultivate the appropriate brahma-viharas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:04 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:I have never seen those who like Ven Nyanaponika get ugly as some followers of other monks.

I guess though that being 'orthodox' makes one's life easier, much like being a white middle-aged male is supposedly easier too. Those who feel marginalized often act like marginalized people. It may explain some of what you see.
Geez, I am not convinced that being orthodox makes one's life easier. And I not convinced that Nyanaponika was an unquestioning orthodox drone. (I know you did not say that, but there is what sounds to me as being a dismissiveness in your comment.) As for the marginalized acting marginalized, well, we know why then the marginalized Mahayana called the Mainstream schools the garbage vehicle, but does that really excuse the behavior?.

you wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:There is simply much in this thread that is unfortunate.

Agreed, but it is what it is. The best we can do is to try and understand the viewpoints of others and cultivate the appropriate brahma-viharas.
I'd rather poke them with pointy sticks.

Did you see this?: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4791&start=40#p74105
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:32 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Geez, I am not convinced that being orthodox makes one's life easier. And I not convinced that Nyanaponika was an unquestioning orthodox drone. (I know you did not say that, but there is what sounds to me as being a dismissiveness in your comment.)

Not at all... but he is orthodox, and that does come with certain privileges and benefits... one of which is willing backers to publish and distribute your Dhamma writings. BPS wouldn't even touch Nanananda Bhikkhu's Nibbana Sermons, for example.

The comment you refer to was intended as it was written. It is best not to assume dismissiveness where there is not dismissiveness. I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them.

As for dismissiveness, someone could easily interpret your comments made in relation to these so-called "Nanavira-wallahs" as being directed towards unthinking idiots, fawning over someone simply on account of a claimed attainment. Yet what would such words prove other than indicate what one is reading into someone else's words?

tiltbillings wrote:As for the marginalized acting marginalized, well, we know why then the marginalized Mahayana called the Mainstream schools the garbage vehicle, but does that really excuse the behavior?.

The mindstates involved are the mindstates involved. What else is there to say?

tiltbillings wrote:I'd rather poke them with pointy sticks.

Did you see this?: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =40#p74105

I did, but I didn't have anything to add/respond.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira.

Hi tilt,
I would be curious to know what kind of differences you are talking about in Ven. Maha Boowa's understanding of the Dhamma compared to Ven. Nanavira?
Do you think that Nanavira would agree with Maha Boowa's idiosyncratic use of citta?

Hi tilt,
I don't know. I'll have to take a look at it.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:38 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Geez, I am not convinced that being orthodox makes one's life easier. And I not convinced that Nyanaponika was an unquestioning orthodox drone. (I know you did not say that, but there is what sounds to me as being a dismissiveness in your comment.)

Not at all... but he is orthodox, and that does come with certain privileges and benefits... one of which is willing backers to publish and distribute your Dhamma writings. BPS wouldn't even touch Nanananda Bhikkhu's Nibbana Sermons, for example.
Let us also keep in mind that Ven Bodhi is not rigidly, unquestioningly orthodox and is quite willing to question and offer a different take on things than found inthe commentaries. And you know BPS has rejected the Nibbana sermons? BPS did publish his two earler book which were clearly "non-orthodox."

The comment you refer to was intended as it was written. It is best not to assume dismissiveness where there is not dismissiveness. I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them.
If you say so. What does "I certainly" sentence refer to?

As for dismissiveness, someone could easily interpret your comments made in relation to these so-called "Nanavira-wallahs" as being directed towards unthinking idiots, fawning over someone simply on account of a claimed attainment. Yet what would such words prove other than indicate what one is reading into someone else's words?
I have no problem with those who filter their Dhamma through the writing of this or that monk posting their points of view, except when, as we see above, we get an out of hand dismissal of individuals who hold differing points of view. I have no problem with dismissding that behavior.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:25 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
The comment you refer to was intended as it was written. It is best not to assume dismissiveness where there is not dismissiveness. I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them.
If you say so. What does "I certainly" sentence refer to?

The Heart Of Buddhist Meditation, Vision of Dhamma, The Roots Of Good & Evil, that small piece on the power of mindfulness. Y'know... the greatest hits of Nyanaponika.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
The comment you refer to was intended as it was written. It is best not to assume dismissiveness where there is not dismissiveness. I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them.
If you say so. What does "I certainly" sentence refer to?

The Heart Of Buddhist Meditation, Vision of Dhamma, The Roots Of Good & Evil, that small piece on the power of mindfulness. Y'know... the greatest hits of Nyanaponika.
What you said: "I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them", which seems to imply that was what Ven Bodhi was about: reading Nanavira in order to rebutt his point of view. That is what I was addressing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:27 am

Greetings Tilt,

Right. I was responding to your...

Geez, I am not convinced that being orthodox makes one's life easier. And I not convinced that Nyanaponika was an unquestioning orthodox drone. (I know you did not say that, but there is what sounds to me as being a dismissiveness in your comment.)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Right. I was responding to your...

Geez, I am not convinced that being orthodox makes one's life easier. And I not convinced that Nyanaponika was an unquestioning orthodox drone. (I know you did not say that, but there is what sounds to me as being a dismissiveness in your comment.)

Metta,
Retro. :)

So, you quote one thing, but were responding to something else. Okay. I am glad that is all very clear mow.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:12 am

Greetings Tilt,

No, I was quoting the right thing.

From here - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4791&start=60#p74116 - we were clearly talking of ven. Nyanaponika, not ven. Bodhi.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:18 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:The Heart Of Buddhist Meditation, Vision of Dhamma, The Roots Of Good & Evil, that small piece on the power of mindfulness. Y'know... the greatest hits of Nyanaponika.
What you said: "I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them", which seems to imply that was what Ven Bodhi was about: reading Nanavira in order to rebutt his point of view. That is what I was addressing.

Huh? You really do have a way in this topic of inferring well beyond what is said.

Again, I meant what I said - no more, no less.

I read Nyanaponika's works because he had something useful to say, and not because I think he was "an unquestioning orthodox drone"... (i.e. the other allegation you levelled when you read far too much into what I was saying).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:The Heart Of Buddhist Meditation, Vision of Dhamma, The Roots Of Good & Evil, that small piece on the power of mindfulness. Y'know... the greatest hits of Nyanaponika.
What you said: "I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them", which seems to imply that was what Ven Bodhi was about: reading Nanavira in order to rebutt his point of view. That is what I was addressing.

Huh? You really do have a way in this topic of inferring well beyond what is said.

Again, I meant what I said - no more, no less.

I read Nyanaponika's works because he had something useful to say, and not because I think he was "an unquestioning orthodox drone"... (i.e. the other allegation you levelled when you read far too much into what I was saying).

Metta,
Retro.
You might want to try to be a bit more clear in your writing, given my stupidity in all of this. You said: I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them. You brought up "rebutting," so what does "rebutting" have to do with this? I just stupidly took it as a reference to Ven Bodhi rebutting Nanavira's ghost, to use an expression from a link you very recently provided. And a few msgs above: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4791&start=40#p74102 : Yet, Bhikkhu Bodhi took it upon himself to argue with the ghost of Nanavira Thera, and Bhikkhu Bodhi's critique tends to continually get thrust into any discussion on Nanavira Thera. I naively thought this was part of the context of what we were discussing. So, damdifino what you meant to say.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:51 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:You might want to try to be a bit more clear in your writing, given my stupidity in all of this. You said: I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them. You brought up "rebutting," so what does "rebutting" have to do with this?

It indicates I read them sincerely, for the benefit that might be derived from reading them.

tiltbillings wrote:I just stupidly took it as a reference to Ven Bodhi rebutting Nanavira's ghost, to use an expression from a link you very recently provided.

No connection intended.

I hope we're all clear now and can get...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:You might want to try to be a bit more clear in your writing, given my stupidity in all of this. You said: I certainly didn't bother reading his texts for the purpose of rebutting them. You brought up "rebutting," so what does "rebutting" have to do with this?

It indicates I read them sincerely, for the benefit that might be derived from reading them.

tiltbillings wrote:I just stupidly took it as a reference to Ven Bodhi rebutting Nanavira's ghost, to use an expression from a link you very recently provided.

No connection intended.
If you say so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:59 am

tiltbillings wrote:Just to add, it is a bit annoying to have people say that Buddhadasa, Nanavira, or whomever else really has it in hand and poop on Vens Bodhi, Nyanaponika and whomever else who does not toe the particular line imagined of whatever particular teacher.

this is true. i love LP Buddhadasa but I'm not rabid about it. i think i got that aspect of my life out of the way by being one of those annoying Morrissey fan boys back when i was a teenager, then one day realizing how annoying i must have been to pretty much everyone in my life. I've never idolized anyone ever again... my take on teachers is if they say something helpful I'll take it on-board, if they say something odd I'll look at it and if it's really weird or just plain stupid I'm not afraid to throw the baby out with the bathwater. there are so many teachers out there i feel no reason to hitch my understanding to anyone else's. this is a good reason for understanding your audience on here as well, we should know that there are some teachers that if quoted will not be taken as the be-all-end-all of the discussion.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:03 am

:goodpost:
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Nanavira.

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:06 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Just to add, it is a bit annoying to have people say that Buddhadasa, Nanavira, or whomever else really has it in hand and poop on Vens Bodhi, Nyanaponika and whomever else who does not toe the particular line imagined of whatever particular teacher.

this is true. i love LP Buddhadasa but I'm not rabid about it. i think i got that aspect of my life out of the way by being one of those annoying Morrissey fan boys back when i was a teenager, then one day realizing how annoying i must have been to pretty much everyone in my life. I've never idolized anyone ever again... my take on teachers is if they say something helpful I'll take it on-board, if they say something odd I'll look at it and if it's really weird or just plain stupid I'm not afraid to throw the baby out with the bathwater. there are so many teachers out there i feel no reason to hitch my understanding to anyone else's. this is a good reason for understanding your audience on here as well, we should know that there are some teachers that if quoted will not be taken as the be-all-end-all of the discussion.
Thanks. To put it simply: there no problem with working with a particular teacher or techinque, but just don't become annoying in the process.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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