"whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Sherab » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:28 am

Why do monks wear robes? Because they are representatives of the Buddha and the Dhamma.
If you are a monk, do you want anyone to misrepresent the Buddha and his teachings? If you answer yes, then what is said in the sutta mentioned in the opening post is perfectly understandable.
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:45 am

i have no idea how this could be interpreted to be anything Taliban like. nor against our modern sensibilities.
we have these very same ideas in the west "birds of a feather flock together" etc
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:36 am

Sobeh wrote:The reference to a hell-realm surely offers a significant contextual clue... but we need the text. Without the Pali, this thread is of little use.

My point. It is very difficult to read this in translation without projecting all sorts of stuff from the western psyche onto it.
This may take the form of imputing an emotional content that the Buddha had in fact transcended. Or in a way worse, imputing that emotional content and then justifying it...
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby cooran » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:19 am

Hello all,

Here is another translation by Sister Upalavanna plus the original Pali version.


6. Dhammacariya Sutta. -
Living according to the Teaching


274. Living according to the Teaching is said to be the ideal, and it is living the holy life.
And there are the homeless too who lead the holy life.

275. There are the noisy, who hurt wild animals,
Their life is evil growing in demerit

276. There is the deluded bhikkhu, fond of strife.
He does not know the Teaching of the Enlightened One.

277. Those that deludedly hurt the developed,
Do not know what is evil and what takes them to loss.

278. Going to loss, going from womb to womb and from dark to dark,
Such bhikkhus later come to unpleasantness.

279. If there be such ones, like a cess pool filled up for one year,
It is very difficult to clean them.

280. If you know of such worldly bhikkhus,
With evil desires, evil thoughts and evil passtures, ----

281. All of you get together and dispel him,
Turn out the impure, throw out the rubbish

282. Therefore expel the non-recluse in the guise of a recluse,
Expel the evil desires and the evil pastures

283. It is suitable that the pure should live with the pure
Be united and clever in this manner and make an end of unpleasantness.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... gga-e.html

2. 6 Kapilasuttaü
276. Dhammacieyaü brahmacieyaü etadàhu vasuttamaü,
Pabbajitopi ce hoti agàrasmà anagàriyaü.

277. So ce mukharajàtiko vihesàbhirato mago,
Jãvitaü tassa pàpiyo rajaü vaóóheti attano.
[BJT Page 86] [\x 86/]

278. Kalahàbhirato bhikkhu mohadhammena àvaño,
Akkhatampi na jànàti dhammà buddhena desitaü.

279. Vihesaü bhàvitattànaü avijjàya purakkhato,
Saükilesaü na jànàti maggaü nirayagàminaü.

280. Vinàpàtaü samàpanno gabbhà gabbhaü tamà tamaü,
Save tàdisako bhikkhu pecca dukkhaü nigacchati.

281. Guthakåpo yathà assa samapuõõo gaõavassiko,
Yo ca evaråpo assa dubbisodho hi sàïgaõo.

282. Yaü evaråpaü jànàtha bhikkhavo gehanissitaü,
Pàpicchaü pàpasaïkappaü pàpaàcàragocaraü.

[PTS Page 050] [\q 50/]
283. Sabbe samaggà hutvàna abhinibbijjayàtha naü,
Kàraõóavaü1 niddhamatha kasambuü càpakassatha.

284. Tato palàpe vàhetha assamaõe samaõamànãne,
Niddhamitvàna pàpicche pàpaàcàragocare.

285. Suddhà suddhehi saüvàsaü kappayavho patissatà,
Tato samaggà nipakà dukkhassantaü karissathàti.
Kapilasuttaü niññhitaü.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... gga-p.html

with mettq
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Stephen K » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:36 am

6. Dhammacariyasuttaṃ

276.

Dhammacariyaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, etadāhu vasuttamaṃ;

Pabbajitopi ce hoti, agārā anagāriyaṃ.

277.

So ce mukharajātiko, vihesābhirato mago;

Jīvitaṃ tassa pāpiyo, rajaṃ vaḍḍheti attano.

278.

Kalahābhirato bhikkhu, mohadhammena āvuto;

Akkhātampi na jānāti, dhammaṃ buddhena desitaṃ.

279.

Vihesaṃ bhāvitattānaṃ, avijjāya purakkhato;

Saṃkilesaṃ na jānāti, maggaṃ nirayagāminaṃ.

280.

Vinipātaṃ samāpanno, gabbhā gabbhaṃ tamā tamaṃ;

Sa ve tādisako bhikkhu, pecca dukkhaṃ nigacchati.

281.

Gūthakūpo yathā assa, sampuṇṇo gaṇavassiko;

Yo ca evarūpo assa, dubbisodho hi sāṅgaṇo.

282.

Yaṃ evarūpaṃ jānātha, bhikkhavo gehanissitaṃ;

Pāpicchaṃ pāpasaṅkappaṃ, pāpaācāragocaraṃ.

283.

Sabbe samaggā hutvāna, abhinibbajjiyātha [abhinibbajjayātha (sī. pī. a. ni. 8.10)] naṃ;

Kāraṇḍavaṃ [kāraṇḍaṃ va (syā. ka.) a. ni. 8.10] niddhamatha, kasambuṃ apakassatha [avakassatha (sī. syā. ka.)].

284.

Tato palāpe [palāse (ka.)] vāhetha, assamaṇe samaṇamānine;

Niddhamitvāna pāpicche, pāpaācāragocare.

285.

Suddhā suddhehi saṃvāsaṃ, kappayavho patissatā;

Tato samaggā nipakā, dukkhassantaṃ karissathāti.

Dhammacariyasuttaṃ [kapilasuttaṃ (aṭṭha.)] chaṭṭhaṃ niṭṭhitaṃ.
With metta,
Upāsaka Sumana
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:17 am

The passage is abviously addressed to monks about monks who are not meeting the required standard. The vinaya clearly explains which offences result in expulsion so I assume this passage is referring to those.

I don't see any relavence to lay people or internet forums here.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:26 am

That was rather my point. I think if we are going to introduce thread topics we need to use some care in contextualising them.
Simply to announce on a public website that the Buddha has apparantly suggested throwing people out like rubbish..without a wider context, risks misunderstanding to say the least.
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Stephen K » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:36 am

Sanghamitta wrote:That was rather my point. I think if we are going to introduce thread topics we need to use some care in contextualising them.
Simply to announce on a public website that the Buddha has apparantly suggested throwing people out like rubbish..without a wider context, risks misunderstanding to say the least.


I actually did that in post #3:

Stefan wrote:Right, I just read this description of the sutta which states:

"The monks are encouraged to avoid monks who conduct their lives in unwholesome ways."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html

So I guess it refers only to monks.

Still, the question remains.
With metta,
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:44 am

Nothing personal Stefan.
I think it highlights one of the drawbacks of an internet forum. And such forums are very much a force for good too.
You see in a Q and A session in a temple or meditation centre the context of any given verse of any sutta or commentary would quickly be established.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Sobeh » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:52 pm

Stefan wrote:I actually did that in post #3... Still, the question remains.


Actually, I don't think it does. The question was:

"Should we not greet or speak to people who are "full of impurity"? Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the sutta?"

'We' as a class doesn't apply in this case; if this passage is for monks and relates to Vinaya on the matter of monks who ought to be expelled, then 'we' as the larger Sangha (or merely as a portion of the internet-using Buddhist community at large) aren't to use this Sutta as a guide to Sila. It's for monks, and solely refers to administrating the monastic community in the face of insincerity. Such a monk as described in this Sutta could easily make a bad name for the Sangha, a serious offense affecting the very longevity of the Dhamma, and so it is that they are to be discarded and expelled.
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Freawaru » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:15 pm

Stefan wrote:"As a cesspool filled over a number of years is difficult to clean, similarly, whoever is full of impurity is difficult to make pure. Whoever you know to be such, bhikkhus, bent on worldliness, having wrong desires, wrong thoughts, wrong behavior and resort, being completely united avoid him, sweep him out like dirt, remove him like rubbish. Winnow like chaff the non-recluses. Having ejected those of wrong desires, of wrong behavior and resort, be pure and mindful, dwelling with those who are pure. Being united and prudent you will make an end to suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html


What is your interpretation of the above-quoted sutta? Should we not greet or speak to people who are "full of impurity"? Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the sutta?


Consider the beginning of this very sutta:

"The practice of Dhamma, [1] the practice of continence, [2] mastery of this is said to be best if a person has gone forth from home to the homeless life.


and compare to the definition of "home"?

The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... perception... fabrication is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby cooran » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:23 pm

Hello all,

The term Bhikkhu as used in the Teachings can have a wider meaning:

Bhikkhave = "Bhikkhus". This is a term for addressing persons who accept the teaching.

Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavours to accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, the Master said: "Bhikkhu."

For amongst those who accept the teaching of the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned.

Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu."
He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu.

Accordingly it is said:
"Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm,
Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm
To aught that lives, that one's a brahmin true.
An ascetic and mendicant too."[16]
Commentary on the Niddana: The Commentary to the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness with Marginal Notes
http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryNidana.htm

with metta
Chris
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby Freawaru » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:37 am

Hi Chris,

thank you for the information :D

Hi Stefan,

To understand the meaning of your sutta about impurity and purity, I would use this definition:

cooran wrote:
Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu."
He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu.


and the terms "impurity" and "purity" as in "Progress of Insight".

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html

Dhammacariya Sutta: Wrong Conduct wrote:... be PURE and mindful, ...


The Progress of Insight wrote:II. The Purification of Mind

During the early part of the methodical practice, AS LONG AS THE MEDITATOR'S MIND IS NOT YET FULLY PURIFIED, wandering thoughts arisen by his thinking of objects of sense desire, etc., will also appear intermittently between thoughts of noticing (the objects of meditation). Sometimes the beginning meditator will perceive occurrence (of these interruptions) and sometimes he will not. But even if he perceives them, it will be only after a short time has elapsed after their appearance. For then the momentary concentration of his mind is still very tender and weak. So these wandering thoughts continue to hinder his mind while it is occupied in developing the practice of noticing. Hence, these wandering thoughts are called "hindering thoughts."

When, however, the momentary concentration of his mind has become strong, the thought process of noticing becomes well concentrated. Hence, when attending to the objects to be noticed — the abdominal movement, sitting, touching, bending, stretching, seeing, hearing, etc. — his noticing thoughts now appear as if falling upon these objects, as if striking at them, as if confronting them again and again. Then, as a rule, his mind will no longer go elsewhere. Only occasionally, and in a slight degree, will this happen, and even in those cases he will be able to notice any such stray thought at its very arising, as expressed in common speech; or, to be exact, he will notice the stray thought immediately after its actual arising. Then that stray thought will subside as soon as it is noticed and will not arise again. Immediately afterwards he will also be able to resume continuous noticing of any object as it becomes evident to him. That is why his mind at that time is called "unhindered."

While the meditator is thus practicing the exercise of noticing with unhindered mind, the noticing mind will close in upon and fix on whatever object is being noticed, and the act of noticing will proceed without break. At that time there arises in him in uninterrupted succession "the concentration of mind lasting for a moment," directed to each object noticed. THIS IS CALLED PURIFICATION OF MIND [18]
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Re: whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:07 pm

Stefan wrote:Right, I just read this description of the sutta which states:

"The monks are encouraged to avoid monks who conduct their lives in unwholesome ways."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html

So I guess it refers only to monks.

Still, the question remains.



Well the suttas do talk quite a bit about avoiding fools and being friends with wise people.
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby bodom » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:42 pm

Should a seeker not find a companion who is better or equal, let him resolutely pursue a solitary course; there is no fellowship with the fool. -- Dhp 61


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Postby bodom » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:10 pm

Association with the Wise by Bhikkhu Bodhi

The Buddha states that he sees no other thing that is so much responsible for the arising of unwholesome qualities in a person as bad friendship, nothing so helpful for the arising of wholesome qualities as good friendship (AN 1.vii,10; I.viii,1). Again, he says that he sees no other external factor that leads to so much harm as bad friendship, and no other external factor that leads to so much benefit as good friendship (AN 1.x,13,14). It is through the influence of a good friend that a disciple is led along the Noble Eightfold Path to release from all suffering (SN 45:2).


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_26.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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