Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

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Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:35 am

The three main defilement are greed, hatred, delusion. Can one of them be totally eliminated before the other two? Or are they only eliminated as a whole?
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:37 am

Greetings Wind,

As I understand it, delusion is a necessary condition for greed and aversion. In other words, they cannot operate without the presence of delusion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:39 am

Oh I thought ignorance was the condition for all three?
Last edited by Wind on Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:40 am

Greetings Wind,

Well... you could have greed without aversion, and aversion without greed, and delusion on its own.

(I think that's right).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:47 am

Btw Retro, I edited my previous post. I think all three defilement are link by ignorance right? And they operate independently of one another if not mistaken.
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:19 am

The Non-returners are completely free from greed and aversion, but not yet free from ignorance.
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:31 am

Wind wrote:Oh I thought ignorance was the condition for all three?


I would have thought ignorance and delusion are synonyms.

As to your original question it's a bit of a chicken and egg question.

If you have personal experience of the cessation of any of these then your question will probably seem irrelevant.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:18 am

Ignorance is not knowing something.
Delusion is a mistaken belief. What you think is so, isnt.

But as always...it comes down to translation.
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:21 am

Greetings,

In terms of the difference, I see "ignorance" as lack of knowledge regarding penetration of the 4NT. I see "delusion" as a temporary condition, the opposite of "vipassana" (seeing things as they really are).

I can't guarantee that's spot on, but that's how I understand them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Stephen K » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:25 am

Yes, ignorance is not knowing the FNT. Delusion is taking what is impermanent to be permanent, taking what is suffering to be happiness, taking what is nonself to be self, and taking what is not beautiful to be beautiful.
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:41 am

To quote Will Rogers " It ain't what you don't know that hurts you * Its what you know that aint so.."

*( although that bit is debatable from a Buddhist POV ).
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:43 am

Delusion (Moha), translated as "confusion" here:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... m.htm#moha
Moha: 'confusion', is one of the 3 disadvantageous roots mūla. The best known synonym is avijjā


http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... #m%C5%ABla
Mūla: 'roots', also called hetu, see: paccaya 1, are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a intentional state cetanā and the consciousness and mental properties associated therewith, in other words, the quality of kamma. There are 6 such roots, 3 kammically advantageous and 3 disadvantageous roots, viz.,: greed, hate, confusion lobha dosa, moha and greedlessness, hatelessness, unconfusedness alobha, adosa, amoha.

In A. III, 68 it is said that greed arises through unwise reflection on an attractive object, hate through unwise reflection on a repulsive object. Thus, greed lobha or rāga comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred dosa comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of ill-humor up to the highest pitch of hate and wrath.

The 3 advantageous kusala roots, greedlessness, etc., though expressed in negative terms, nevertheless possess a distinctly positive character, just as is also often the case with negative terms in other languages, for example, the negative term 'immorality', which has a decidedly positive character.

Thus, greedlessness alobha is a name for unselfishness, generosity, etc., hatelessness adosa for kindness or goodwill mettā unconfusedness amoha for understanding paññā.

The perception of impurity is to be developed in order to overcome greed lust; loving-kindness in order to overcome hate; understanding in order to overcome confusion; A. VI, 107.

Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views see: kamma-patha these things are due either to greed, or hate, or confusion; A. X, 174.

Enraptured with lust greed, enraged with hate, blinded by confusion, overwhelmed, with mind ensnared, man aims at his own ruin, at others' ruin, at the ruin of both, and he experiences mental pain and grief. And he follows evil ways in deeds, words and thought... And he really knows neither his own welfare, nor the welfare of others, nor the welfare of both. These things make him blind and ignorant, hinder his knowledge, are painful, and do not lead him to peace

The presence or absence of the 3 disadvantageous roots forms part of the mind contemplation in the Satipatthāna Sutta M. 10. They are also used for the classification of disadvantageous consciousness see: Tab. I.

See The Roots of Good and Evil, by Nyanaponika Thera WHEEL 251/253.


http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... vijj%C4%81
Avijjā: Ignorance, nescience, the blindness of not knowing, is synonymous with confusion moha (see mūla), is the primary & deepest root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the confusion that fools beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure see: vipallāsa. Ignorance is defined as not knowing the Four Noble Truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its ceasing see: S. XII, 4.

As ignorance is the foundation of all life-maintaining actions, and the root of all evil and suffering, it therefore stands first in the formula of Dependent Origination paticca-samuppāda. But for that reason, says Vis.M XVII, 36f ignorance should not be regarded as the causeless root-cause of the world, since is not causeless. The cause of it is stated thus: With the arising of mental fermentations āsava there is the arising of ignorance M. 9. But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as a root-cause; namely, when it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the Round of Existence... As it is said: No first beginning of ignorance can be perceived, Bhikkhus, before which ignorance was not, and after which it came to be. But it can be perceived that ignorance has its specific causal condition idappaccaya A. X, 61. The same statement is made A. X, 62 about the craving for existence bhava-tanhā (see tanhā). Craving and ignorance are called the outstanding causes or creators of the kamma that lead to unhappy and happy destinies Vis.M XVII, 38.

As ignorance still exists though in a very refined way until the attainment of Arahatship, it is counted as the last of the 10 mental chains samyojana, which bind beings to the cycle of rebirths. As the first two roots of evil, greed and hate (see: mūla), are on their part rooted in ignorance, consequently all disadvantageous states of mind are inseparably bound up with ignorance. Ignorance or confusion is the most obstinate , dense, deep, subtle, hidden and fearsome of the three roots of evil.

Ignorance is one of the fermentations āsava and latent tendencies anusaya. It is often called a hindrance nīvarana e.g. in S.XV, 3; A.X, 61 but does not appear together with the usual list of five hindrances. It is however immanent in them all, yet especially dominant in doubt & uncertainty vicikicchā.

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Ben » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:46 pm

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:In terms of the difference, I see "ignorance" as lack of knowledge regarding penetration of the 4NT. I see "delusion" as a temporary condition, the opposite of "vipassana" (seeing things as they really are).

I can't guarantee that's spot on, but that's how I understand them.


The commentaries, like the Abhidhamma, are great guides!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:47 pm

Greetings Ben,

That is the Theravada view, isn't it?

I hope I didn't misrepresent it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Ben » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:02 pm

Hi Wind,
Wind wrote:The three main defilement are greed, hatred, delusion. Can one of them be totally eliminated before the other two? Or are they only eliminated as a whole?


280. 2. But when ignorance is establshed since it is present when its condition is present, and when 'with ignorance as condition there are formations; with formation as condition, consciousness', there is no end to the succession of cause with fruit in this way. Consequently, the Wheel of Becoming, with its twelve factors, revolving with the linking of cause and effect, is established as having 'no known beginning'.
281 This being so, are not the words 'With ignorance condition there are formations', as an exposition of a simple beginning, contradicted?- This is not an exposition of a simple beginning. It is an exposition of a basic state (s107). For ignorance is the basic state for the three rounds (see s298). It is owing to his seizing ignorance that the fool gets caught in the round of the remaining defilements, in the rounds of kamma, etc,m just as it is owing to seizing a snake's head that the arm gets caught in [the coils of] the rest of the snake's body. But when the cutting off of ignorance is effected, he is liberated from them just as the arm caught [in the coils] is liberated when the snake's head is cut off, according as it is said, 'With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance' (S.ii, 1), and so on. So this is an exposition of the basic state whereby there is bondage for him who grasps it, and liberation for him who lets it go: it is not an exposition of a simple beginning.
-- XVII, 280-281, Vism

kind regards

Ben
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Ben » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:08 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,

That is the Theravada view, isn't it?

I hope I didn't misrepresent it.

Metta,
Retro. :)


indeed, I believe you summarised it quite well. There is a very slight variance between the commentarial and abhidhammic point of view of what ignorance actually comprises but I can't locate the pithy paragraph in Vism which explains it.
kind regards

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:14 pm

Thanks Ben... just thought I should check.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:32 pm

Retrofuturist you are in fact Ian Curtis and I claim my 5 pounds !
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:17 am

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

moha [moha]:
Delusion; ignorance (avijja).. One of three unwholesome roots (mula) in the mind.

avijja [avijjaa]:
Unawareness; ignorance; obscured awareness; delusion about the nature of the mind. See also moha.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Can one of the defilement be eliminated before the other two

Postby Virgo » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:24 pm

Wind wrote:The three main defilement are greed, hatred, delusion. Can one of them be totally eliminated before the other two? Or are they only eliminated as a whole?

There are ten fetters which are eradicated in stages. At the first stage of enlightenment, that of sotapanna, the first three fetters are forever rooted out. At that time a certain degree of ignorance is rooted out but not all. All ignorance concerning the view that some dhamma is the self is eradicated forever, however, ignorance with lobha and dosa still arises. At the second stage of enlightenment, lobha and dosa are greatly lessened. At the third stage, they are eradicated. At the final stage of enlightenment, the final 5 fetters are permanently eliminated. So the fetters are rooted out in stages, directly corresponding to the level of panna that arises with each stage.

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