The meaning of paccaya in DO

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Spiny Norman
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The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:04 am

I've been looking at the meaning of "paccaya" in dependent origination. It's usually translated as "condition".
I've seen paccaya used as a verb, in the sense of "shapes" or "influences", but I believe this to be incorrect. As I see it paccaya is a noun, not a verb. Paccaya ( "condition" ) is something on which something else, the so-called 'conditioned thing', is dependent, and without which the latter cannot be.

The interpretation of paccaya as a noun, not a verb, is IMO supported by the general formula for dependent arising which appears in MN38 and elsewhere:
"When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases."

Your thoughts?

P
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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:12 am

Greetings porpoise,

I don't know about all that noun and verb business (I forgot all that about 15 years ago :tongue: ) but I agree that one supports the next, and that when the support goes, the later consequence goes too... as you said, ""When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.". I think that underlying structure is critical.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby Sobeh » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:39 pm

"something on which something else, the so-called 'conditioned thing', is dependent, and without which the latter cannot be"

In this line, is 'conditioned thing' = sankhara?

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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby OcTavO » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:19 pm

I don't know about the linguistics of paccaya translating as noun vs. a verb, but I don't see that it would significantly alter the message of the doctrine of paticcasamuppāda either way. Whether it's "with this as condition, that arises..." or "this conditions that...", it sounds like the same meaning.

When we say that Bhava conditions Jati, Bhava is both the condition and, by de facto, it is conditioning, right?

:thinking:

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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:55 pm


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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:24 am

"Conditions" doesn't work for me. It sounds like "influences" and that's not what is meant. What is meant is "necessary condition". Feeling is a necessary condition for craving. If there was no feeling then there could not be craving.

I don't see how one could produce the same grammatical result with a verb.
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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:27 am


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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:55 am

- Peter


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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby Anicca » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:41 am


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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:43 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:46 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:02 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:09 pm


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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:46 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: The meaning of paccaya in DO

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:24 pm

I feel paccaya is best translated as 'specifically gives rise to'.

This also understood by 'When this does not arise that does not arise'.

'conditions' as a translation is just wrong. It is not a matter of influnecing - if it was nibbana could not be attained by the reverse cessation sequence of the DO.

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