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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Craving v Clinging in DO

Craving v Clinging in DO

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:27 am

I still can't work out the difference between craving ( tanha ) and clinging ( upadana ) in dependent origination.

I've seen tanha translated as "craving" and "attachment to desire".
I've seen upadana translated as "clinging", "attachment" and "grasping".

I find these descriptions hard to distinguish from an experiential point of view, but presumably there must be a significant difference if upadana arises in dependence on tanha?

I hope you can help.

P
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Reductor » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:23 pm

You can also define craving as "seeking for delight" while clinging is "delighting in"... so craving is a seeking activity or anticipatory activity, while clinging is a holding and relishing activity.

Hope that helps a little bit.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:26 am

thereductor wrote:You can also define craving as "seeking for delight" while clinging is "delighting in"... so craving is a seeking activity or anticipatory activity, while clinging is a holding and relishing activity.

Hope that helps a little bit.


Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P
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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Reductor » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:49 pm

porpoise wrote:
Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P


Well, that makes sense too, doesn't it? It is, after all, dependent origination.

Past clinging conditions present craving, and present craving leads future clinging.

Or, craving leads to seeking, seeking to questing and the questing to accumulation, and it is the accumulations that we cling to.

Just spend more time with your mind and it'll become clearer, I'm certain.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:44 am

thereductor wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P


Well, that makes sense too, doesn't it? It is, after all, dependent origination.

Past clinging conditions present craving, and present craving leads future clinging.

Or, craving leads to seeking, seeking to questing and the questing to accumulation, and it is the accumulations that we cling to.

Just spend more time with your mind and it'll become clearer, I'm certain.



Yes, thanks, helpful observations.

P
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric
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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby PeterB » Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:42 am

I dont think most of us have a problem with what we are being taught about craving. As a concept I mean..I am sure that we are all too familiar with craving itself. My own view is that we overemphasis " clinging". Clinging it seems to me is what happens in the absence of seeing things the way they are. So rather than tying ourselves in knots in order not to cling, I think it more profitable to examine the roots of that clinging. We tend instead to make lists for ourselves of things not to cling to.
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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Reductor » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:49 pm

PeterB wrote:I dont think most of us have a problem with what we are being taught about craving. As a concept I mean..I am sure that we are all too familiar with craving itself. My own view is that we overemphasis " clinging". Clinging it seems to me is what happens in the absence of seeing things the way they are. So rather than tying ourselves in knots in order not to cling, I think it more profitable to examine the roots of that clinging. We tend instead to make lists for ourselves of things not to cling to.


Craving also follows from lack of understanding.

The purpose of the DO teaching is to undermine that ignorance. To see and know that: it is not permanent, it is not free of affliction, it is not a self, nor is it property of a self. All those things can be seen from the perspective of DO.

I agree of course that we shouldn't tie ourselves into a knot. I've been there, done that. Pointless. However, it is easy to slip into the other extreme of complacency. The the beauty of the DO teaching is that just by observing it as it works itself out again and again we loosen the clinging and abandon craving in a more natural fashion. We abandon not just a list of things, but the whole breadth of experience.

Well, we do so a little at a time. ;)
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Craving v Clinging in DO

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:58 pm

porpoise wrote:
thereductor wrote:You can also define craving as "seeking for delight" while clinging is "delighting in"... so craving is a seeking activity or anticipatory activity, while clinging is a holding and relishing activity.

Hope that helps a little bit.


Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P


There are some links in the 12 links that are difficult to seperate in practice because they occure one after the other rapidly. If you are not mindful enough you cannot really distinguish the differences. For example, becoming - > birth
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