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Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:49 am
by mikenz66
I went to a talk at my local Insight group a couple of days ago, which was on the subject of "Meditation and Imagination". A couple of interesting questions came up in the discussion:
1. Would an awakened person still imagine?
2. Is it possible to have compassion (or have a desire to improve anything) without imagination?

Of course, this depends on what exactly what is meant by "imagination", but these questions did make me think a little about whether "imagination" is something we are trying to do away with, or an activity the serves a useful purpose. Clearly the instructions for cultivation of metta, for example, involves imagination/visualisation...

Any thoughts?

Mike

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:04 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Of course, this depends on what exactly what is meant by "imagination", but these questions did make me think a little about whether "imagination" is something we are trying to do away with, or an activity the serves a useful purpose.
It's hard to give a blanket answer to this question, and you're quite right that it depends on what exactly what is meant by "imagination".

I find analysis of what is and isn't papanca (i.e. conceptual proliferation rooted in delusion) to be useful in determining which aspects of "imagination" may be useful and which may be harmful.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:42 am
by alan
Hi Mike.
To which instructions do you refer?
I'm Abbhidamma-challenged, sorry. Is there a sutta that requires imaginative flights to achieve compassion?

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:51 am
by mikenz66
retrofuturist wrote: I find analysis of what is and isn't papanca (i.e. conceptual proliferation rooted in delusion) to be useful in determining which aspects of "imagination" may be useful and which may be harmful.
Well, yes, but can how does one decide which things (if any) that one "thinks about" are not papanca?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Ven Thanissaro translates papapanca as "objectification").
"Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future ideas cognizable via the intellect.
Mike

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:54 am
by Goedert
mikenz66 wrote:I went to a talk at my local Insight group a couple of days ago, which was on the subject of "Meditation and Imagination". A couple of interesting questions came up in the discussion:
1. Would an awakened person still imagine?
2. Is it possible to have compassion (or have a desire to improve anything) without imagination?

Of course, this depends on what exactly what is meant by "imagination", but these questions did make me think a little about whether "imagination" is something we are trying to do away with, or an activity the serves a useful purpose. Clearly the instructions for cultivation of metta, for example, involves imagination/visualisation...

Any thoughts?

Mike
Mike think the an awaked person know.

Imagination has to do with poderation and mental talkness and ponderations. (Except imaginary concentration methods)

Think the knowledge that comes from paticcasamupada, kamma, vipaka and deep levels of concentration, makes that awaked person feel the caracter of that person and know the proper help for it.

Awaked person have pãnna.

I think it is like the sensation of been thrist, you know that it the only solution is a form a liquid. Kind of that.

EDIT: Maybe this - As a person look imagine the most suitable way to get the liquid. The awaked one might imagine to most suitable way to imput the right help

But any way, to true know this answer is difficult. There is any awaked arround to ask?

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:56 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,

Objectification sounds like a pretty odd translation to me. It's worth noting that the antonym to papanca is nippapanca, which is understood to be synonymous with nibbana. Therefore, whatever papanca is, it is not done by arahants, hence the definition I gave earlier, stipulating delusion as an inherent component.

The Buddha came up with some cracking similes though, presumably derived from his imagination, requiring some degree of conceptual objectification... yet, it was imagination that was embued with and characterised by nippapanca rather than papanca.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:58 am
by alan
Nanananda goes down like honey...so sweet, so tasty. Perhaps I'm under his hypnotic sway?
Don't see why imagination, or any other of the mind's elaborate creations, should be treated as something with it's own existence...or given a special place in our attempt at understanding the world...

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:05 am
by mikenz66
Hi Alan,
alan wrote:Hi Mike.
To which instructions do you refer?
I mean instructions for the Brahmaviharas, such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(And let him think:) "In safety and in bliss May creatures all be of a blissful heart.
Whatever breathing beings there may be.
No matter whether they are frail or firm,
With none excepted,
be they long or big Or middle-sized,
or be they short or small Or thick,
as well as those seen or unseen,
Or whether they are dwelling far or near,
Existing or yet seeking to exist.
...
alan wrote: I'm Abbhidamma-challenged, sorry. Is there a sutta that requires imaginative flights to achieve compassion?
The above is talking about using imagination to develop loving kindness. Instructions for compassion are similar, involve imagining "all creatures", etc.

What I perhaps didn't state clearly is that feelings of compassion, etc, tend to involve imagining that the situation could be different. At least at a mundane, worldly level. For example: "This person is in pain, if they were not in pain they would be happier, so I will help them..."

I may well be confused about this whole issue, but these questions made me wonder whether putting too much emphasis on "just knowing the present moment" might actually be counter-productive to the development of parts of the path...

Mike

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:08 am
by mikenz66
retrofuturist wrote: Objectification sounds like a pretty odd translation to me. )
Sure, but it's the easiest translation to cut and paste from, and I highlighted the occurrences so you can just read them as papanca...

Mike

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:12 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,

Indeed it is... and whilst the translation of papanca isn't too flash hot, the translator introduction is of interest.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:16 am
by mikenz66
Goedert wrote: Mike think the an awaked person know.
Well, yes, but what I'm trying to raise has to do with practical questions about the use of imagination as part of the path.

Here's another example:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... call-devas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects the devas, thus: 'There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Yama Devas, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' As he is recollecting the devas, his mind is calmed, and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned,...
Mike

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:22 am
by mikenz66
retrofuturist wrote: Indeed it is... and whilst the translation of papanca isn't too flash hot, the translator introduction is of interest.
Yes. And it does give some clues about which thinking is papanca by pointing to:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Seeing in what way is a monk unbound, clinging to nothing in the world?"
"He should put an entire stop to the root of objectification[papanca]-classifications: 'I am the thinker.'
Mike

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:39 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,

Have you read Venerable Nanananda's "Concept And Reality in Early Buddhist Thought", available through BPS?

I've not mentioned it to date in this topic (because sometimes I feel I mention him at every turn) but I think Alan is on the mark with his association between this topic and Venerable Nanananda's work. It would be worth reading if you wanted to pursue the question in depth.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:02 am
by alan
One of the best Dhamma books ever. A treasure.

Re: Imagination, Compassion, Awakening

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:33 am
by mikenz66
retrofuturist wrote: Have you read Venerable Nanananda's "Concept And Reality in Early Buddhist Thought", available through BPS?
No, but I've ordered it.

However, I was hoping to generate some actual discussion about practise... :meditate:

Mike