Is dukkha just psychological?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby ajahndoe » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:11 pm

As a mark of existence, along with Anicca and Anatta, Dukkha can only be stated as "imperfection" or "change" itself. There are different meanings for the word Dukkha which must be taken in context. One type of Dukkha is what we call "suffering"; another is "change"; the last is of "conditioned states".

Bringing all three types of Dukkha together, we might say "The mind and body, being conditioned, suffer due to change."

The mind may become free of the Dukkha of suffering and conditioned states. The Dukkha of change remains constant, but is merely experienced by the mind without clinging. For the mind to release the Dukkha of suffering and conditioned states, the three marks of existence must be fully penetrated as well as the Four Noble Truths.

The body remains subject to change and to being conditioned, but states experienced by the body do not become suffering to the mind, and it is the mind that colors all things as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Thus a peace beyond all happiness can be experienced by the mind, and in this way yes our Dukkha is psychological. We can not change the inevitability of the body growing old, being subject to disease and death, and failing. We can not shy away from change itself. We can only see things with clarity, with true wisdom of how they are, and release the mind from all wrong view.
ajahndoe
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:47 am

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby christopher::: » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:09 am

ajahndoe wrote:As a mark of existence, along with Anicca and Anatta, Dukkha can only be stated as "imperfection" or "change" itself. There are different meanings for the word Dukkha which must be taken in context. One type of Dukkha is what we call "suffering"; another is "change"; the last is of "conditioned states".

Bringing all three types of Dukkha together, we might say "The mind and body, being conditioned, suffer due to change."

The mind may become free of the Dukkha of suffering and conditioned states. The Dukkha of change remains constant, but is merely experienced by the mind without clinging. For the mind to release the Dukkha of suffering and conditioned states, the three marks of existence must be fully penetrated as well as the Four Noble Truths.

The body remains subject to change and to being conditioned, but states experienced by the body do not become suffering to the mind, and it is the mind that colors all things as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. Thus a peace beyond all happiness can be experienced by the mind, and in this way yes our Dukkha is psychological. We can not change the inevitability of the body growing old, being subject to disease and death, and failing. We can not shy away from change itself. We can only see things with clarity, with true wisdom of how they are, and release the mind from all wrong view.


:goodpost:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
christopher:::
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:53 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:From the above it is saṅkhāradukkhatā -- the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications -- which is dukkha in an all pervasive sense. All fabrications are unsatisfactory because they are impermanent. They are always becoming "otherwise." Dukkhadukkhatā and vipariṇāmadukkhatā, on the other hand, are only experienced on certain occasions.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha "ceases" when Nibbana is achieved? Or to put it another way, which of these types of dukkha is Buddhist practice aimed at alleviating?

Spiny
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:55 pm

ajahndoe wrote:We can not change the inevitability of the body growing old, being subject to disease and death, and failing. We can not shy away from change itself.


So presumably these aspects of dukkha are unavoidable even for an Arahant?

Spiny
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Nyana » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:23 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Or to put it another way, which of these types of dukkha is Buddhist practice aimed at alleviating?

If the origin of dukkha is abandoned, then the cessation of dukkha is realized. The origin of dukkha is craving sensual pleasure (kāmataṇhā), craving existence (bhavataṇhā), craving non-existence (vibhavataṇhā). When you abandon these you will have your answer.

All the best,

Geoff
Nyana
 
Posts: 2229
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby christopher::: » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:03 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Or to put it another way, which of these types of dukkha is Buddhist practice aimed at alleviating?

If the origin of dukkha is abandoned, then the cessation of dukkha is realized. The origin of dukkha is craving sensual pleasure (kāmataṇhā), craving existence (bhavataṇhā), craving non-existence (vibhavataṇhā). When you abandon these you will have your answer.

All the best,

Geoff


:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
christopher:::
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby Dmytro » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:53 am

Hi Porpoise,

porpoise wrote:But is it the experience of birth, ageing and death which is dukkha, or is it the fear and aversion towards them which is dukkha? From the second Noble Truth we know that dukkha is caused by tanha, craving or attachment to desire, which sounds psychological.


It's both.

Here's an explanation of two kinds of 'dukkha' in the Four Actualities for the Noble Ones (ariya-sacca), given in Maha-satipatthana sutta:

393. "Katama~nca, bhikkhave, dukkha.m? Ya.m kho, bhikkhave, kaayika.m dukkha.m kaayika.m asaata.m kaayasamphassaja.m dukkha.m asaata.m vedayita.m, ida.m vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkha.m.

394. "Katama~nca, bhikkhave, domanassa.m? Ya.m kho, bhikkhave, cetasika.m dukkha.m cetasika.m asaata.m manosamphassaja.m dukkha.m asaata.m vedayita.m, ida.m vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassa.m.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

"And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The 'dukkha' of mental origin stems from the 'contact of the intellect' (mano-samphassa), while the physical dukkha stems from the contact through five bodily sense doors.

Best wishes, Dmytro
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Is dukkha just psychological?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:31 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:From the above it is saṅkhāradukkhatā -- the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications -- which is dukkha in an all pervasive sense. All fabrications are unsatisfactory because they are impermanent. They are always becoming "otherwise." Dukkhadukkhatā and vipariṇāmadukkhatā, on the other hand, are only experienced on certain occasions.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha "ceases" when Nibbana is achieved? Or to put it another way, which of these types of dukkha is Buddhist practice aimed at alleviating?

Spiny


ALL dukkha is erradicated upon nibbana. But as long as the body is alive through alternative series of causes and effects (beginning with the arising of eye+visual object, leading to eye consciousness, for example), consciousness is maintained, as the body itself is a manifestation of old avijja (you could say it coded into our very genes). With the death of the body, the total eradication of avijja in terms of sense impressions, can become manifest in the body as well (When Ven dabbamallaputta cremated 'himself', the Buddha praised this as a total nibbana, even though he was an arahanth).

Psychological dukkha goes with arahanthhood, physical dukkha goes at points 'vimutti', phala/samadhi cessation states, and at death of an arahanth.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Previous

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: silver surfer and 16 guests