Moment to moment rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:14 pm

PeterB wrote:Tep I have to ask...do you know that this image :stirthepot: means "to make trouble" ?
If that IS what you mean then ok... :tongue:


Thanks, my friend. No, I sincerely did not!

But I think of it as a Dhamma pot with a stirring spoon -- a peaceful interpretation.
So when you see this image again, think of it this way, " Dhamma_spoon is stirring up his Dhamma pot". :lol:

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A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:31 pm

I will Tep...I will just ignore the rather mischievous expression on the little stirrers face.. :lol:

Back to your point..yes puntarbhava can be read both ways. Which is why there is no need for disgreement.
The important thing is what goes on on the cushions. At different times I have held a literal post mortem view of punarbhava and a view that was more agnostic about post mortem states. What didnt change was what I did on the meditation cushion, and the motive for that, to end suffering.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:46 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
PeterB wrote:That stands even if physical birth and death are not factored in.


Yes, and that's the beauty of this concept.

Tep :stirthepot:
----


What concept? :shrug:
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby 5heaps » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:59 pm

Shonin wrote:Nothing is reborn. Every moment, every situation is unique, even when we experience some recognition. Nothing appears which has appeared before. All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.

if everything is unique in the true sense that you mean then recognition is a delusion, an invalid cognition. this is of course, not the case.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:06 pm

Sunrise wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote:
PeterB wrote:That stands even if physical birth and death are not factored in.


Yes, and that's the beauty of this concept.

Tep :stirthepot:
----


What concept? :shrug:


I am sorry, Sunrise. The concept was discussed earlier but the layer of messages burried it deep down.

Here is what I wrote earlier :

"Rebirth" is the starting/beginning of the next life (that ends with next death). Thus the term "reborn" or "rebirth" implies continuity of birth-and-death cycle [samsara] that is defined by the continuous stream of kamma and results of kamma. At the moment of a death, given that cessation of old kamma has not yet occurred, rebirth is unavoidable. Thus I also agree with Shonin that "nothing is reborn" -- rebirth/reborn is just the result of kammic momentum which we see as "continuity".

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby 5heaps » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:08 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka. In my sincere opinion such extrapolation is not wrong, although it is not necessary for the understanding of the Four Noble Truths.

its clumsy logic because is overnegates the subject youre supposed to be realizing.
youre supposed to understand that you are momentary, not that you turn into something else in the next moment.

youre supposed to understand how its your nature to disintegrate over time (moment-by-moment), simply due to the fact that you were born. the point is not that youre actually 1000 individual people over the course of a second instead of 1 person over the course of that second.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:50 pm

5heaps wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote:The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka. In my sincere opinion such extrapolation is not wrong, although it is not necessary for the understanding of the Four Noble Truths.

its clumsy logic because is overnegates the subject youre supposed to be realizing.
youre supposed to understand that you are momentary, not that you turn into something else in the next moment.

youre supposed to understand how its your nature to disintegrate over time (moment-by-moment), simply due to the fact that you were born. the point is not that youre actually 1000 individual people over the course of a second instead of 1 person over the course of that second.


Hi, Sheaps and PeterB, -

I agree with you, Sheaps, that it is a misunderstanding when one sees different persons, or beings, undergoing the process of birth-and-death every second like that. Such a mininterpretation of the Dependent Origination principle would obstruct realization of the noble truths.

PeterB wrote: "Back to your point..yes puntarbhava can be read both ways. Which is why there is no need for disgreement.
The important thing is what goes on on the cushions. At different times I have held a literal post mortem view of punarbhava and a view that was more agnostic about post mortem states. What didnt change was what I did on the meditation cushion, and the motive for that, to end suffering."

Dhamma_spoon: Talking about ending suffering, there is a special insight knowledge called "knowledge of comprehension" in the Patisambhidamagga (Path of Discrimination). It is very relevant to our discussion and I want to share it with you.

Ptsm I, 280. "Understanding of defining, after generalization, thus 'Materiality, whether past, future or present, is impermanent, formed, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation' is knowledge of comprehension. Understanding of defining, after generalization, thus 'Feeling, ...Perception, ... Formations, ... Consciousness, whether past, future or present, is impermanent, formed, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation' is knowledge of comprehension. ... ... "

Please observe the three time periods -- past, future or present -- but there is no mentioning of rebirth and death in the 'present moment' or 'from moment to moment'. The concept of "moment-to-moment" dependent origination is an extension from the original Pali text -- that's why you cannot find it in the Ptsm or in the suttas.

Sincerely,

Tep :stirthepot:
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby chownah » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:01 pm

The Buddha taught to not believe something just because he said it (I think he taught this) but rather you should verify stuff through your own experience and so on the post mortem rebirth issue I'm taking his advise and not believeing in it just because he said it....and I'm waiting for somthing in my experience to point towards post mortem rebirth....but so far nothing has even hinted at it....oh well....it really doesn't seem to be a hindrance though in that all the other stuff that the Buddha taught still makes perfectly good sense and seems to work even without a belief in post mortem rebirth.....so.....why should I be concerned about this issue?
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Sunrise » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:53 pm

chownah wrote:The Buddha taught to not believe something just because he said it (I think he taught this)


He did in MN 38


"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'We have reverence for the Teacher. We say it out of reverence to the Teacher'?"
"No, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'Our recluse said it, these are the recluse’s words. But we do not say that'?"
"No, venerable sir."

...

"Bhikkhus, is it that you yourself knowing, seeing and experiencing this speak thus?"
"Yes, venerable sir."

"Good, O, Bhikkhus, I have led you in this Dhamma which is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves. ..
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Shonin » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:07 pm

5heaps wrote:
Shonin wrote:Nothing is reborn. Every moment, every situation is unique, even when we experience some recognition. Nothing appears which has appeared before. All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.

if everything is unique in the true sense that you mean then recognition is a delusion, an invalid cognition. this is of course, not the case.


Best not to throw 'of course' around casually.

Recognition is the recognition of a pattern ie. an appearance or similarity of form. It is not the acknowledgement of the reappearance of a permanent identity or essence. A true permanent identity (atman) is not something that could be detected by the senses, thus we would have to posit some sort of metaphysical sixth sense (seventh in Buddhism :)) with which to sense it. If we investigate our experiences carefully we can notice that no such absolute identity is actually sensed, however we can observe ourselves cognitively projecting or positing this such notions of identity onto our actual experiences.

Nevertheless, to recognise patterns, and forms similar to those we have stored is very useful. For example it allows me to recognise food that is good to eat and my wife, even though there is nothing in those phenomena that strictly speaking remains unchanged from one moment to the next.

Also, sometimes our 'recognition equipment' actually misfires resulting in the 'deja vu' experience.
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