Moment to moment rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Jason » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:41 am

Annapurna wrote:So, if you don't accept literal rebirth, are you also...sorry.... denying the 6 realms? Since rebirth is so crucial for the rest of the Dhamma, can you leave it out?


I don't recall ever saying that I don't accept postmortem rebirth, only that I'm agnostic about it. As for the five realms (in Theravada, the asuras aren't considered to be separate from the devas), it's just as easy to view them as metaphorical descriptions of mental states as it is external realms of existence where rebirth is possible; although, in today's terminology, we can possibly think of these realms as extra dimensions of space (such as required by string theory) if taken literally.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:41 am

Peter, you are being very offensive just now by insinuating I am so dishonest and plan on editing my posts.

You also disrespected my wish that Jason replies. I am very disappointed of you.

I have reported your last posts and bow out.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:46 am

Jason wrote:
Annapurna wrote:So, if you don't accept literal rebirth, are you also...sorry.... denying the 6 realms? Since rebirth is so crucial for the rest of the Dhamma, can you leave it out?


I don't recall ever saying that I don't accept postmortem rebirth, only that I'm agnostic about it. As for the five realms (in Theravada, the asuras aren't considered to be separate from the devas), it's just as easy to view them as metaphorical descriptions of mental states as it is external realms of existence where rebirth is possible; although, in today's terminology, we can possibly think of these realms as extra dimensions of space (such as required by string theory) if taken literally.
I

Jason, only to be polite to you since you replied:

I saif I am fine with being agnostic about some things, so am I.

To be agnostic means that a person cannot say yes (or no) to one or another option.

Right?

I know the realms can be seen as metaphorical descriptions of mental states, and let's assume that is all we got, then what if a mass murderer doesn't ever dwell 'in hell', before he dies, because he doesn't even get detected? What if all he ever does is rejoice in his crimes in his memory but never fear and regret?

Would he have escaped kamma then, if there is only one life...?

Think perhaps of the Black Dahlia. He never went to jail for it. What if he never regretted, never felt "hellish" about it?

What do you think?
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:11 am

Anna if you wanted ONLY Jason to reply you should have made that clear...there is of course no guarantee that others would not have anyway. Such are the ways of Internet forums.
As to your retrospective editing you have a long history of it.
Which is why I and others when you show signs of losing equanimity over a given issue developed the habit of quoting your posts in reply in full.
Finally and I realise that you did not address this to me..I suspect that part of the problem here is that you do understand the term agnostic. It does not mean scepticism or indecision. It is a positive leaving aside of cleaving to a fixed position, It is to say " I dont know" not because of a lack of factual detail or because an unfortunate kammic inheritance has rendered one unable to understand the issues. It is to acknowledge that the issues are subtle and not always capable of being rendered into modern languages without distortion.
Which is why Ajahn Sumedho and before him Ajahn Chah would not be drawn on such issues.
I am sure that they have/or had their views. But they see that any view they give will be divisive.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Jason » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:17 am

Annapurna wrote:
Jason wrote:
Annapurna wrote:So, if you don't accept literal rebirth, are you also...sorry.... denying the 6 realms? Since rebirth is so crucial for the rest of the Dhamma, can you leave it out?


I don't recall ever saying that I don't accept postmortem rebirth, only that I'm agnostic about it. As for the five realms (in Theravada, the asuras aren't considered to be separate from the devas), it's just as easy to view them as metaphorical descriptions of mental states as it is external realms of existence where rebirth is possible; although, in today's terminology, we can possibly think of these realms as extra dimensions of space (such as required by string theory) if taken literally.
I

Jason, only to be polite to you since you replied:

To be agnostic means that a person cannot say yes to one or another option.

Yes?


To paraphrase Thomas Huxley, who coined the term, to be agnostic about something means to not pretend conclusions made about said thing are certain when they're not demonstrated or demonstrable. That's why I said I'm agnostic when it come to postmortem rebirth but a firm believer in moment to moment rebirth, because without extrasensory perception, the latter is the only one that's readily observable in the here and now.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Jason » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:23 am

Annapurna wrote:I know the realms can be seen as metaphorical descriptions of mental states, and let's assume that is all we got, then what if a mass murderer doesn't ever dwell 'in hell', before he dies, because he doesn't even get detected? What if all he ever does is rejoice in his crimes in his memory but never fear and regret?

Would he have escaped kamma then, if there is only one life...?

Think perhaps of the Black Dahlia. He never went to jail for it. What if he never regretted, never felt "hellish" about it?

What do you think?


Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of answering hyperbolic hypotheticals. Same reason I left the one about Hitler untouched.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:38 am

OK.... OK....

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:19 pm

5heaps wrote:a thing doesnt have the power to endure for a second moment because it's dependent upon causes and conditions, and those causes and conditions are constantly changing.

on the other hand its not as though you are bob in one moment and then jim in the next.. there is still some sort of continuation possible whilst adhering to the above law of dependent arising. therefore its not entirely correct to say you die each moment, because then it would mean bob somehow became jim, when really its still just bob there. in fact theres some kind of truth about bob that youre trying to find and you ruin it by just saying that bob becomes jim. bob becomes jim is not profound.


Sheaps -
Continuity is the most important missing link in most discussions so far. Thank you for reminding us about it. :thanks:
The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka. In my sincere opinion such extrapolation is not wrong, although it is not necessary for the understanding of the Four Noble Truths.

Sincerely,

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:23 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka.


But what is it that is reborn in every moment?

P
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Shonin » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:35 pm

porpoise wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote:The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka.


But what is it that is reborn in every moment?

P


Nothing is reborn. Every moment, every situation is unique, even when we experience some recognition. Nothing appears which has appeared before. All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:40 pm

Shonin wrote:Nothing is reborn. ... All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.


Sounds good to me.

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:01 pm

TMingyur wrote:"Moment to moment rebirth" does not appear to be a consistent expression.

Is moment meant to negate "continuum" (or "life")?
If yes, neither is there a "continuum" (i.e. "life") that can be perceived nor is there a "moment" that can be perceived. But both, a "continuum" (i.e. "life") and a "moment" can be conceptually constructed and thus are within the range of conventional language. So why prefer "moment" to "life" if both are equally invalid (or conventionally valid)?

"re-birth" implies being "born again" but when did the preceding birth take place if "moment" is intended to negate "continuum" (i.e. "life")?

Kind regards


Hi, TMing -

I like the profound statement you rightly made about three important ideas underlying the Dependent Origination principle :
Continuity/Life (or being, bhava); Moment(khana); Rebirth(patisandhi),
and you logically prove that they are "conceptually constructs" that blend together. :stirthepot:
I hope I understand you correctly.

Truly,

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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Aloka » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:13 pm

porpoise wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote:
But what is it that is reborn in every moment?

P



Atta (self)


.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:26 pm

You Aloka are naughty... ;)
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:34 pm

porpoise wrote:
Shonin wrote:Nothing is reborn. ... All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.


Sounds good to me.

P


Hi Porpoise, Shonin -

Dhamma_spoon: "The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka." ...


Porpoise: "But what is it that is reborn in every moment?

Shoin: "Nothing is reborn. Every moment, every situation is unique, even when we experience some recognition. Nothing appears which has appeared before. All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.

And Porpoise agreed.
......................

"Rebirth" is the starting/beginning of the next life (that ends with next death). Thus the term "reborn" or "rebirth" implies continuity of birth-and-death cycle [samsara] that is defined by continuous stream of kamma and results of kamma. At the moment of a death, given that cessation of old kamma has not yet occurred, rebirth is unavoidable. Thus I also agree with Shonin that "nothing is reborn" -- rebirth/reborn is just the result of kammic momentum which we see as "continuity".

Did I make sense to you? :stirthepot:


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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:42 pm

That stands even if physical birth and death are not factored in.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:45 pm

Aloka wrote:
porpoise wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote:
But what is it that is reborn in every moment?

P



Atta (self)


.


Hi, Aloka --

You don't mean the kind of atta that is permanent, do you? :jawdrop:
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:46 pm

PeterB wrote:Anna if you wanted ONLY Jason to reply you should have made that clear...there is of course no guarantee that others would not have anyway. Such are the ways of Internet forums.
As to your retrospective editing you have a long history of it.
Which is why I and others when you show signs of losing equanimity over a given issue developed the habit of quoting your posts in reply in full.
Finally and I realise that you did not address this to me..I suspect that part of the problem here is that you do understand the term agnostic. It does not mean scepticism or indecision. It is a positive leaving aside of cleaving to a fixed position, It is to say " I dont know" not because of a lack of factual detail or because an unfortunate kammic inheritance has rendered one unable to understand the issues. It is to acknowledge that the issues are subtle and not always capable of being rendered into modern languages without distortion.
Which is why Ajahn Sumedho and before him Ajahn Chah would not be drawn on such issues.
I am sure that they have/or had their views. But they see that any view they give will be divisive.


Anna if you wanted ONLY Jason to reply you should have made that clear


I said it here:

PS: I would like to get a reply from Jason.


I quoted him and wanted to discuss his points with him. Not that you reply for him.

there is of course no guarantee that others would not have anyway. Such are the ways of Internet forums.


Such is the way of some people.

As to your retrospective editing you have a long history of it.


I, as a non-Native speaker, edit grammar mistakes a lot, but hardly ever content.

when you show signs of losing equanimity


Who's so angry he goes ad hominem?

developed the habit of quoting your posts in reply in full.


Which is what I always do, out of respect for the poster, so that a singled out quote can easily be read in context.

I suspect that part of the problem here is that you do understand the term agnostic. It does not mean scepticism or indecision.....
.

I think you need to edit your little Freudian slip. You wanted to say: "You don't understand the term agnostic", but rest assured that academics know such terms, also in Germany.

A g n o s t i s c h .

;)

ALMOST the same word. And same meaning! :tongue:
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:48 pm

PeterB wrote:That stands even if physical birth and death are not factored in.


Yes, and that's the beauty of this concept.

Tep :stirthepot:
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:06 pm

Tep I have to ask...do you know that this image :stirthepot: means "to make trouble" ?
the emoticon comes from an expression in English " stirring it " meaning to make mischief .
If that IS what you mean then OK... :tongue: Nothing wrong with a bit of mischief.
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