Three Things a Buddha Cannot Do?

[Kenshou]

Alright alright, let's establish a little more context. So to take a step back:

Could you explain more precisely what you mean by "but how do they cause the end of themselves when they need to be around to cause it?"

[plwk]

cannot give an accurate idea of the origin of earthquakes

what did he say about it?

Mahaparinibbana Sutta
Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight?

"This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.

"Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops intense concentration on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes.

"Again, Ananda, when the Bodhisatta departs from the Tusita realm and descends into his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending;
and when the Bodhisatta comes out from his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending;
and when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, Supreme Enlightenment;
when the Tathagata sets rolling the excellent Wheel of the Dhamma;
when the Tathagata renounces his will to live on;
and when the Tathagata comes to pass away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains —
then, too, Ananda, this great earth trembles, quivers, and shakes.

"These, Ananda, are the eight reasons, the eight causes for a great earthquake to arise.

[PeterB]

So if we take this literally the Buddha was quite clearly wrong..this great earth is NOT established upon liquid. Or in other translations water..
So there is no liquid/water to become agitated by any physical or supernatural cause..
We know that earthquakes are caused by shifts in the earths tectonic plates..
So those who insist that the Buddhas pronouncements are descriptions of literal events are forced to either deny the scientific evidence and cling to ancient cosmology..OR bend the simple meaning of words to make them fit the case OR accept the fact the fact that the Buddha was not in possession of knowledge concerning the nature of the physical universe..which is not a big leap. Nor does it matter.
If you want to know about the Cosmos go to Sagan, Feynman and their successors like Hawkings.
If you want to know about Dependant Origination..the go- to guy is the Buddha.

[Sherab]

Semantics.
He died.
We have a description of that event.

Frankly, it's as simple as that

Not really.

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

53. Then the Venerable Ananda said: "This, O Lord, I have heard and learned from the Blessed One himself when the Blessed One said to me: 'Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.'"

54. "And did you believe it, Ananda?"

"Yes, O Lord, I did."

"Then, Ananda, the fault is yours. Herein have you failed, inasmuch as you were unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting given by the Tathagata, and you did not then entreat the Tathagata to remain. For if you had done so, Ananda, twice the Tathagata might have declined, but the third time he would have consented. Therefore, Ananda, the fault is yours; herein have you failed.

55. "At Rajagaha, Ananda, when dwelling at Vultures' Peak, I spoke to you, saying: 'Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak. Whosoever, Ananda, has developed... Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.'

[Zom]

He is quite clearly talking of a different order of reality to that described by science

Actually he is correct about everything but speaks in a language that will be understandable for ancient indians.

So if we take this literally the Buddha was quite clearly wrong..this great earth is NOT established upon liquid. Or in other translations water..
So there is no liquid/water to become agitated by any physical or supernatural cause..
We know that earthquakes are caused by shifts in the earths tectonic plates..

He was clearly right - because tectonic plates are based on a liquid magma and that is why these tectonic plates move and float here and there, causing earthquakes.

[PeterB]

Semantics.
He died.
We have a description of that event.

Frankly, it's as simple as that

Not really.

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

53. Then the Venerable Ananda said: "This, O Lord, I have heard and learned from the Blessed One himself when the Blessed One said to me: 'Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.'"
was not to be invented
54. "And did you believe it, Ananda?"

"Yes, O Lord, I did."

"Then, Ananda, the fault is yours. Herein have you failed, inasmuch as you were unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting given by the Tathagata, and you did not then entreat the Tathagata to remain. For if you had done so, Ananda, twice the Tathagata might have declined, but the third time he would have consented. Therefore, Ananda, the fault is yours; herein have you failed.

55. "At Rajagaha, Ananda, when dwelling at Vultures' Peak, I spoke to you, saying: 'Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak. Whosoever, Ananda, has developed... Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it.'

Whatever. He died. You can blame poor old long suffering Ananda all you like ( or whoever complied the Suttas a long time after the event can blame Ananda.) He died. Fact.
Quite clearly by the time that the Sutta was cobbled together from authentic stuff and anectodotes the deification of the Buddha was well under way and so there was the need to explain away the fact that he was mortal. A docetic Buddha was not invented for some time yet..so Ananda became the fall guy.

[5heaps]

"There are eight reasons, Ananda

oh.. yes the elements are bizarre if taken literally (ie. earth = dirt)

OR bend the simple meaning of words to make them fit the case

they were never described literally, they were always described as the fundamental building blocks of matter (ultimates) and every object contains all of the elements.

Could you explain more precisely what you mean by "but how do they cause the end of themselves when they need to be around to cause it?"

well we say stuff like "the cup broke".
there was a cup, and then it broke.
how could it break when it needs to be there in order for it to break? if its there, how can you suggest to me that its broken?

[PeterB]

He is quite clearly talking of a different order of reality to that described by science

Actually he is correct about everything but speaks in a language that will be understandable for ancient indians.

So if we take this literally the Buddha was quite clearly wrong..this great earth is NOT established upon liquid. Or in other translations water..
So there is no liquid/water to become agitated by any physical or supernatural cause..
We know that earthquakes are caused by shifts in the earths tectonic plates..

He was clearly right - because tectonic plates are based on a liquid magma and that is why these tectonic plates move and float here and there, causing earthquakes.

But that is not what he says Zom. He says the earth is established on liquid which is established on the atmosphere which is established on space. So he is talking not about the interior of the planet..he is talking about the planet being established on liquid. And he is wrong.
Plus the fact the fact that frankly anyone who believes literally that earthquakes are caused by supernatural events agitating liquid , wherever that liquid is found...is as credulous as any 6 day creationist.
Its quite obviously mythological language that comes after the event.

[Zom]

But that is not what he says Zom. He says the earth is established on liquid which is established on the atmosphere which is established on space. So he is talking not about the interior of the planet..he is talking about the planet being established on liquid. And he is wrong.

It is not too wise to think that "4 elements" are physical water, soil, atmospheric wind and wood fire.
So when Buddha says "wind", that means: "movement element" as we know from Commentaries and Abhidhamma.
When he says "water", that means "cohesion element", when he says "fire", that means "heat element", when he says "earth", that means "hardness element".
In every element of matter all 4 these elements exist at one and the same time but with different proportions. So, if he says "based on wind" (and not "atmosphere" - this is wrong translation), that means based on movement. From DN 16 we see that he says that "earth based on liquid" - that coincides with tectonic earth plates based on liquid magma. Then it is said that "wind" affects this "liquid". That means that different movements inside the planet affect magma and so this makes tectonic plates cause a clash. So all this ball of magma called "Planet Earth" is placed in space. And so he is quite right. What is more, in other suttas he says that between these "world spheres" there is a pitch-black darkess, and again, he is quite right, if we take "world sphere" as a planet.

And concerning "supernatural causes" - well, yes, this is a matter of belief, but you can't prove that this doesn't happen in reality. As well as you can't prove that there is nibbana or kamma. Buddhism is a religion in this aspect, so you have to believe. But as far as science go, I don't see any aspect of reality that is proven by science and wrong from buddhist point of view.

[Lazy_eye]

Earthquakes cause much suffering. Out of compassion, shouldn't the Tathagata do his best to avoid causing them?

[PeterB]

You'd think LE ...you'd think.

But presumably anyone who dies was due to get theirs anyway.....


Zom if a literalist view of these issues aids your practice of the Buddhadhamma then who I am to question that.
However for many such a literalist view presents a considerable barrier to their practice.
Particularly if they are drawn to Buddhadhamma because of its appeal to reason only to find that it comes with its very own brand of fundie rhetoric that requires them to park their brain by the door.
Including titbits like earthquakes being caused by Buddhas dying..which is a striking poetic metaphor, but cant be discussed as verifiable fact with a straight face.

[Zom]

Yes, as I said, Buddhism is a religion, and not a psychotherapeutic practice as many try to make it today . So following Buddha Path you have to have the whole pack - otherwise there is a big chance to drop everything you don't like from the suttas. Something like "only vipassana is a path and all other teachings is a useless baggage from ancient India".

[Fede]

I'm sorry...I go out for a half hour to buy milk, eggs and bread, and we've gone from

"I was reading on BuddhaNet about the differences between Buddhism and other world religions. It mentioned there are three things a Buddha cannot do, but did not elaborate. What are these three things?"

to

"He says the earth is established on liquid which is established on the atmosphere which is established on space. So he is talking not about the interior of the planet..he is talking about the planet being established on liquid. And he is wrong.
Plus the fact the fact that frankly anyone who believes literally that earthquakes are caused by supernatural events agitating liquid , wherever that liquid is found...is as credulous as any 6 day creationist.
Its quite obviously mythological language that comes after the event."

Talk about a divergence of topics! :cookoo: :

[PeterB]

My practice has done pretty well for many years without buying " the whole package " Zom.
At first I DID buy the whole package. Now I am ruthless with my pruning shears.... to mix metaphors.

I accept D.O. because I can see its truth from moment to moment for myself.
I accept sila as a basis for practice because I can see for myself the unhappiness that comes from living without it.
I accept practice...in my case vipassana, because over the years I have seen its results for myself.

As far as the omniscience of the Buddha..or literal Rebirth...or Buddhist cosmology and so on is concerned I think that they are at best speculative and at worst represent a barrier to asking what the Buddhadhamma has to say to women and men in 2010 C.E.

I certainly dont need a combination of Stephen Hawkings and Superman with a little Gandalf thrown in as a role model. The Buddha as described in Hesse's " Siddhartha " will do nicely..

[PeterB]

I'm sorry...I go out for a half hour to buy milk, eggs and bread, and we've gone from

"I was reading on BuddhaNet about the differences between Buddhism and other world religions. It mentioned there are three things a Buddha cannot do, but did not elaborate. What are these three things?"

to

"He says the earth is established on liquid which is established on the atmosphere which is established on space. So he is talking not about the interior of the planet..he is talking about the planet being established on liquid. And he is wrong.
Plus the fact the fact that frankly anyone who believes literally that earthquakes are caused by supernatural events agitating liquid , wherever that liquid is found...is as credulous as any 6 day creationist.
Its quite obviously mythological language that comes after the event."

Talk about a divergence of topics! :cookoo: :

A divergence of topics it is Fede. It would be foolish to deny it.