Paticcasamuppada

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Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:01 pm

Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:39 pm

Again with the " mental ".... :roll:

Anyway..... either model works. Starting with Ignorance and Contact...certainly paticcasamuppada does not need to commence with physical birth as an infant to function as an explanation of the arising of phenomena ( see Buddhadasa ) In fact Buddhadasa says that to view paticcasamuppada as relating simply to physical birth is to miss its true import.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:18 pm

PeterB wrote:Again with the " mental ".... :roll:

Anyway..... either model works. Starting with Ignorance and Contact...certainly paticcasamuppada does not need to commence with physical birth as an infant to function as an explanation of the arising of phenomena ( see Buddhadasa ) In fact Buddhadasa says that to view paticcasamuppada as relating simply to physical birth is to miss its true import.


What's so confusing about the mental thing? :D BY mental I mean product of the mind.

I have read the Buddhadasa's essay. Could you please explain the other model to me?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:11 pm

Explain " mind " to me Sunrise..Using Buddhist terminology.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:32 pm

OK. I think mind is what does the thinking, forming ideas, labeling, building up perceptions. You could say it is citta or mind. Mind is integrated with the physical body like the brain and the nerves system. For example, if there is no brain then there will probably be no mind. It's another sense base like the eye, ear etc. When a mind object (like a though) make contact with the mind (the mechanism used to think) this cognition is what we call mind-consciousness.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:43 pm

There is thinking, labelling, forming ideas, etc etc...does something DO them ?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:49 pm

Eye is there. It makes contact with a tree. Does someone do the seeing? Nope

Eye consciousness is there. What recognizes the tree as a pine tree? In the mind. Does someone do the recognizing? Nope

:thinking:
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:54 pm

In the what ?
There is seeing. There is consciousness. There are cognitions. Is there an entity or sub entity that is seeing, or is conscious or is having cognitions ?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Stephen K » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:55 pm

And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent (into the womb), production (abhinibbatti= rebirth), the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth." The meaning of the term `various orders of beings', is fully brought out by a passage in another sutta specifically dealing with Dependent Origination, the Mahanidana Sutta (DN 15): "With birth as condition there is aging and death. How that is so, Ananda, should be understood in this way. If there were absolutely and utterly no birth of any kind anywhere - that is, of gods into the state of gods, of celestials into the state of celestials, of spirits, demons, human beings, quadrupeds, winged creatures, reptiles, each into their own state - if there were no birth of beings, of any sort into any state, then, in the complete absence of birth, with the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir."3 Again, it is quite clear here that birth means what we would normally consider it to be: the arising in the human realm of a being in the womb.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... NATION.htm
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:57 pm

Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:01 pm

PeterB wrote:In the what ?
There is seeing. There is consciousness. There are cognitions. Is there an entity or sub entity that is seeing, or is conscious or is having cognitions ?


If you are asking about an entity that does the seeing, I already said there is no self that sees or thinks.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:04 pm

PeterB wrote:Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.


Great. Thanks Stefan.

Peter why don't you explain the mind to me please? It is easier than the Q&A session don't you think ? :jumping:
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:11 pm

PeterB wrote:Is there an entity or sub entity that is seeing, or is conscious or is having cognitions ?


Oh I get what you ask. Well maybe there is an entity. The nerves system, the memory cells in the brain, the complex neural networks in the brain and the awareness created by the functioning of these all together can be thought of as the mind don't you think? I cannot give a better answer as I am not a brain specialist but I guess you get the picture yeah?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:18 pm

The point I am trying to make Sunrise is that the" mind " is a construct that comes from western concepts. If we try to grasp what it means it slips through our fingers.
There is perception, there are cognitions and so on.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Jason » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:20 pm

Sunrise wrote:Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?


It can actually be both, although I think the latter one is more useful to the actual practice since it's here and now that the work has to be done.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:23 pm

Jason wrote:
It can actually be both


But how can one word in one teaching have two meanings? :juggling:
Last edited by Sunrise on Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:26 pm

PeterB wrote:The point I am trying to make Sunrise is that the" mind " is a construct that comes from western concepts.


Then what is the mind-consciousness talked about in the suttas? The mind makes contact with an external object and there arises the mind-consciousness. Please explain "mind" in this context which appears in the suttas

:anjali:
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Kenshou » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:33 pm

I like to think of it as both.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:38 pm

You mean the Buddha meant it both ways? :jawdrop:
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Kenshou » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:52 pm

That's sort of for the individual to determine I think. I think that both models or perspectives are contained in the suttas, though they don't use exactly the same terminology.
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