Paticcasamuppada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Jason » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:08 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Jason wrote:
It can actually be both


But how can one word in one teaching have two meanings? :juggling:


Is there some rule that it can't?

The process of dependent co-arising, while predominately mental, is a process of conditionality that's understood to occur moment to moment and over multiple lifetimes, and there's nothing to preclude it from doing both. As I said before, becoming (bhava) is a mental process, which arises due to the presence of clinging (upadana) in the mind with regard to the five-clinging aggregates, and acts as a condition for the birth (jati) of the conceit 'I am,' the self-identification that designates a being (satta).

But it's not logically impossible that a new psycho-physical organism can be also born via the same process at the time of death of the pysical body whereby the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness, hence statements like, "... when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time" (SN 44.9).
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:38 pm

Jason wrote:The process of dependent co-arising, while predominately mental, is a process of conditionality that's understood to occur moment to moment and over multiple lifetimes, and there's nothing to preclude it from doing both.

Yes, that's what I thought Rupert Gethin put quite well in the extract I quoted here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5174#p79884

Sunrise, there are many words that take multiple meanings in the Canon. For example:
Sankhāra: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... kh%C4%81ra
Dukkha: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_d.htm

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Goedert » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:34 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Jason wrote:
It can actually be both


But how can one word in one teaching have two meanings? :juggling:


If we take the physical body as made of fire, water, earth, air and space. We see in Theravada Doctrine there are beings that are mind-born, meaning that they do not have any physical body and there are some beings neither have a physical or mind body existing in the immaterial sphere.

Nothing of this can be captured. Not abiding in dhammas is abiding in pañña.

All dhammas are devoid of a self. In any of this dhammas that are devoid of a self is possible to something get a physical body? Mental Body? Imaterial Body?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:39 pm

Greetings,

PeterB wrote:Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.

Complete with the judicious insertion of the words "into the womb" which are simply not to be found in the sutta text itself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:56 am

Jason wrote:
But it's not logically impossible that a new psycho-physical organism can be also born via the same process at the time of death of the pysical body whereby the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness, hence statements like, "... when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time"


There's no rule. We don't know what the Buddha meant. We are just interpreting what he said so any interpretation is open for discussion and questioning.

Anyway I don't understand the physical birth part in here which is why I ask. As retro said the word womb does not appear in suttas except only in one place in the entire pali canon which is in the MahaNidhana sutta. But then again a lot of things are expressed differently in that sutta and the DN is speculated to be a later addition so the credibility of the sutta is doubtful.

And this particular sentence which you highlighted also does not necessarily support that "last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditions the arising of a new consciousness". Ajhan Buddhadasa interprets it as the state of mind which has no sense of "I" arisen in the mind.

But anyway, maybe both interpretations are probably right. :?
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:24 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
PeterB wrote:Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.

Complete with the judicious insertion of the words "into the womb" which are simply not to be found in the sutta text itself.

I'm not sure what you mean. There are plenty of references to the womb in the texts:
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site%3 ... itaka+womb

In the explicit context of Paticcasamuppada we have, for example:
For example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"


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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:35 am

Greetings Mike,

What I meant is simply that the bracketed phrase "in the womb", which was included in the sutta quote provided earlier ( viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5180#p80200 ) is actually absent from that particular tract of Pali text. The translator has taken it upon themselves to insert it into the translation, for (what they believe is) clarification. Of course, there is reference to the womb in other texts, as you point out - there is no question of that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. There are plenty of references to the womb in the texts:


Not in the pali suttas except in one. At least I haven't come across any.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:15 am

Sunrise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. There are plenty of references to the womb in the texts:


Not in the pali suttas except in one. At least I haven't come across any.

Did you click on the search that I posted above?
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&sa ... =&gs_rfai=
You might be right that there are not many suttas specifically about paticcasamuppada that have the actual word "womb" in them, but there are plenty on that link talking about the workings of kamma that mention wombs.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Virgo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:52 am

Sunrise wrote:Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?

The birth of the "I"?

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:51 am

Virgo wrote:
Sunrise wrote:Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?

The birth of the "I"?

Kevin
The "I" is in quotes.

Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:52 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Sunrise wrote:Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?

The birth of the "I"?

Kevin
The "I" is in quotes.

Or, to translate into Virgo-speak... it would be the puthujjana perception that there is a person making a choice, or a person who creates kamma, or a person who feels the effects of kamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Or, to translate into Virgo-speak... it would be the puthujjana perception that there is a person making a choice, or a person who creates kamma, or a person who feels the effects of kamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Or: it is really a mass of cetasikas going hog-wild due to eons of a lack of proper conditions arising when the time was wrong all in the blink of an non-existent "eye." Blinking but no blinker.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Zom » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:17 am

Quite interesting reading on topic from Ven. Thanissaro:

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... rising.pdf :reading:
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

PeterB wrote:Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.

Complete with the judicious insertion of the words "into the womb" which are simply not to be found in the sutta text itself.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Although even without "into the womb" the sutta still appears to support the literal rebirth model.

P
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:38 am

Depends on your mindset porpoise. It depends on what we bring to lunch what we actually eat.
The Buddha was immensely skillful at addressing issues at the level of the expectations of his listeners and then giving them the opportunity to see past their existing view. A literal belief in Reincarnation was the norm in his day. He undermined that subtly.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:44 am

PeterB wrote: A literal belief in Reincarnation was the norm in his day. He undermined that subtly.


Maybe, maybe not. As you say, it's possible to read different things into the suttas depending on one's current view.

P
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:48 am

Sunrise wrote:Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?


There are different views on this, and a lack of concensus. As I see it DO is an elaboration of the second Noble Truth, which appears to be "psychological". However I prefer to keep an open mind and not reject alternative interpretations.

P
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:49 pm

porpoise wrote:Although even without "into the womb" the sutta still appears to support the literal rebirth model.



As peter said, it depends on the way you look at it.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:53 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Did you click on the search that I posted above?
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&sa ... =&gs_rfai=
You might be right that there are not many suttas specifically about paticcasamuppada that have the actual word "womb" in them, but there are plenty on that link talking about the workings of kamma that mention wombs.

Mike


I was talking about suttas explaining dependent origination which is the topic under discussion. (Sorry if I didn't make that clear) Out of the pali canon there is only 1 which talks about paticcasamuppada where a womb is mentioned as far as I know. Your link has that sutta which appears in the DN

The other suttas are mostly irrelevant to the topic we discuss here. They would probably support rebirth views. The suttas in AN (as well as the two in the MN) seem more like moral teachings to me:

A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being.


Now, for one of wrong view, Lohicca, I tell you, there is one of two destinations: either hell or the animal womb.


They are not relevant to this discussion.
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