Paticcasamuppada

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:50 pm

Hi Sunrise,
Sunrise wrote:They are not relevant to this discussion.

It depends. If one sees paticcasamuppada as a elaboration of the details of the teachings about Kamma then they are certainly relevant.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:07 pm

The 'three lives' interpretation of the DO is very important and should not be discarded for the more glitzy moment to moment one life model. Otherwise there woul be no way to explain why an arahanth does not vanish in a puff of smoke when avijja/ignorance is erradicated. The DO is complex - more complex than a stream entrant who was the Buddhas attendant (who had a special task in gathering and remembering all the dhamma) could understand. The Buddha admonished him when he said thAt he could understand it very well.

As for the mind, better to see it as a series of events, rather than as a static 'thing'. That is more 'waterfall' than 'pond'. There is no static waterfall. It only has the illusion of static thing.

With metta

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:23 pm

rowyourboat wrote:The 'three lives' interpretation of the DO is very important and should not be discarded for the more glitzy moment to moment one life model. Otherwise there woul be no way to explain why an arahanth does not vanish in a puff of smoke when avijja/ignorance is erradicated. The DO is complex - more complex than a stream entrant who was the Buddhas attendant (who had a special task in gathering and remembering all the dhamma) could understand. The Buddha admonished him when he said thAt he could understand it very well.

As for the mind, better to see it as a series of events, rather than as a static 'thing'. That is more 'waterfall' than 'pond'. There is no static waterfall. It only has the illusion of static thing.

With metta

RYB


I appreciate the right view of yours concerning its contemplation over the three life-time periods (past, future, present) and, importantly, thank you for the good waterfall model or abstraction of life continuity.
You did a good job rowing your boat across the river to "the other shore"! :thumbsup:
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:02 am

rowyourboat wrote:The 'three lives' interpretation of the DO is very important and should not be discarded for the more glitzy moment to moment one life model.


Noone is discarding anything. Persoanlly I have a lot of gray areas in the 'three lives' interpretation which requires me to "believe" certain things to accept it. Having said that I understand that not everything can be proven just like that. For the time being I think I will continue to focus on this moment

rowyourboat wrote:Otherwise there woul be no way to explain why an arahanth does not vanish in a puff of smoke when avijja/ignorance is erradicated.


Not sure what you are talking about
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:21 am

Sunrise wrote:
porpoise wrote:Although even without "into the womb" the sutta still appears to support the literal rebirth model.



As peter said, it depends on the way you look at it.


It depends on whether you accept the sutta at face value, or choose to interpret it metaphorically. I've noticed that sometimes people choose the metaphorical meaning because they don't like the implications of the literal meaning.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:29 am

Greetings Porpoise,

porpoise wrote:It depends on whether you accept the sutta at face value, or choose to interpret it metaphorically. I've noticed that sometimes people choose the metaphorical meaning because they don't like the implications of the literal meaning.

I see two problems with this...

Firstly, it assumes one must be either 'literal' or 'metaphorical'... all very black and white, yes and no, this one or the other. It doesn't account for subtle definitions and shades of meaning, nor does it acknowledge how the Buddha put a twist on existing words (loka comes to mind as a good example, satta is another) to frame them away from worldly conventions and orientate them towards the Dhamma.

Secondly, it assumes that the decision of how to interpret a phrase or doctrine is a matter of personal likes or dislikes. This is a classic straw man argument seen repeatedly on Buddhist forums - so common in fact, I think the people who state it must actually believe it. On the other hand, it's quite possible that people are driven not by their own personal ignorant preferences, but by the coherent explanations of many modern bhikkhus and lay teachers, who have looked at the suttas on their own terms, not interpreted through commentarial frames of references, and have seen the "subtle definitions and shades of meaning" that I referred to above. People I know who believe in a structural, rather than temporal model of dependent origination, invariably do so because they genuinely believe that is what the Buddha meant, and they take it thus, out of respect for their teacher... not on account of personal preference.

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Retro. :)
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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Porpoise,
Secondly, it assumes that the decision of how to interpret a phrase or doctrine is a matter of personal likes or dislikes.


I think it sometimes is like that. And sometimes people are drawn to particular teachers because they personally like that teacher's interpretation, so it's kind of self-reinforcing. I'm not wanting to criticise anyone, I'm just describing what I've observed over a period of time.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:38 am

Greetings Porpoise,

porpoise wrote: I'm not wanting to criticise anyone, I'm just describing what I've observed over a period of time.

Unless you've learned to penetrate the minds of others though, how much of this is observing and how much is projecting?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:39 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Porpoise,

porpoise wrote: I'm not wanting to criticise anyone, I'm just describing what I've observed over a period of time.

Unless you've learned to penetrate the minds of others though, how much of this is observing and how much is projecting?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Some of both, no doubt.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:35 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Secondly, it assumes that the decision of how to interpret a phrase or doctrine is a matter of personal likes or dislikes. This is a classic straw man argument seen repeatedly on Buddhist forums - so common in fact, I think the people who state it must actually believe it.


I so agree with this. Couldn't have said it any better. I have seen this over and over again in the short period I have been in Buddhist forums.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:45 pm

porpoise wrote:It depends on whether you accept the sutta at face value, or choose to interpret it metaphorically. I've noticed that sometimes people choose the metaphorical meaning because they don't like the implications of the literal meaning.



What do you mean by "taking the suttas at face value"???? In fact they actually support the this moment cessation of suffering. Take any sutta related to paticcasamuppada (except mahanidhana sutta) and see.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby dhamma_spoon » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:45 pm

porpoise wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Porpoise,

porpoise wrote: I'm not wanting to criticise anyone, I'm just describing what I've observed over a period of time.

Unless you've learned to penetrate the minds of others though, how much of this is observing and how much is projecting?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Some of both, no doubt.

P


Don't you first observe a phenomenon, discern it, then project (i.e. extrapolate) the understanding to another phenomenon ?
As a whole, it is called learning process.

Regards,

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:09 pm

Sunrise wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
Secondly, it assumes that the decision of how to interpret a phrase or doctrine is a matter of personal likes or dislikes. This is a classic straw man argument seen repeatedly on Buddhist forums - so common in fact, I think the people who state it must actually believe it.


I so agree with this. Couldn't have said it any better. I have seen this over and over again in the short period I have been in Buddhist forums.


I don't think it's a straw man argument atall. We're not as objective in our choices as we like to think.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:16 pm

[quote="dhamma_spoon}
Don't you first observe a phenomenon, discern it, then project (i.e. extrapolate) the understanding to another phenomenon ?
As a whole, it is called learning process.


-----[/quote]

Yes, I think so. I think Retro's point was that to some extent the observation I made was based on an assumption that other people experience things in a similar way to me - which I acknowledged.
But I still think the observation is a valid one, and it's based on offline as well as online experience over a long period of time. We are all subject to craving and aversion when it comes to views and interpretation, and it's natural that we are drawn to teachers and people who share our views. This is also evident on Buddhist discussion forums.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:29 pm

Well they must be fairly unskillful teachers porpoise if in a non cyber situation they dont spot that someone needs a little adjusting and then take corrective action.
All the teachers I have learned most from soon see when someone is being driven by a particular need that they want the teacher to reinforce.... and then the teacher doesn't oblige. Quite the reverse.
I suspect that its also why some people restrict their " sangha" activity safely to cyber world..much more hygienic.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:35 pm

PeterB wrote:Well they must be fairly unskillful teachers porpoise if in a non cyber situation they dont spot that someone needs a little adjusting and then take corrective action.


There are all sorts of teachers and all sorts of students.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:43 pm

PeterB wrote:I suspect that its also why some people restrict their " sangha" activity safely to cyber world..much more hygienic.


I agree about the importance of face to face sangha, but I don't think they are necessarily more challenging than online sanghas. I've often found in offline sanghas that a kind of group-think develops, with people thinking the same and even sounding the same - like how the FWBO used to be, for example. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby PeterB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:47 pm

I find myself at this point at a loss as to your point.
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Sunrise » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:42 pm

porpoise wrote: We are all subject to craving and aversion when it comes to views and interpretation, and it's natural that we are drawn to teachers and people who share our views. This is also evident on Buddhist discussion forums.



Speak for yourself porpoise
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Re: Paticcasamuppada

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:23 am

Sunrise wrote:
porpoise wrote: We are all subject to craving and aversion when it comes to views and interpretation, and it's natural that we are drawn to teachers and people who share our views. This is also evident on Buddhist discussion forums.



Speak for yourself porpoise


What is it that you disagree with?

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