Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

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Jetavana
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Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Jetavana » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:56 am

Here in Thailand, especially Bangkok, one could observe each morning on the street side or smaller street lanes, there are numerous devotees offering Alms food to Monks on Alms round early int he morning around 6 am.

One could observe several errors or mistakes that devotees performed as follows;

1) Offered food and expect Monks to give libation chanting.
In the Monk's Vinaya, Alms food receiving need not perform Libation chanting, or give
blessings.

2) Many do (force) Monks to perform Libation Chanting because devotees holds cup of water
and ready to pour into a plate.
Alms offering is not Sanghikha offering to the temple whereby pouring water with Monk's
Libation Chanting. Thus most Monks has to (forced) to perform Libation Chanting which is
not good for the monk as he may have break the Vinaya.

3) Most Devotees squat down and offer Dana and wait for Libation Chanting.
In the Vinaya, a standing Monk could give blessings only if the devotee is sick or
handicapped, but again the blessing cannot be more that 6 wordings.

Hence, these basic Buddhist rules are not taught to many devotees.

Metta Karuna.
Jet

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby pariyatti » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:09 am

Why do we turn away from people begging for food in our day to day life, and yet offer food so easily to those in robes? I was with friends and I decided to give the food I had to several children not to the bhikkhus. Watching people ignore the children begging made me ask, "what is not right with this picture?"

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:57 am

pariyatti wrote:Why do we turn away from people begging for food in our day to day life, and yet offer food so easily to those in robes? I was with friends and I decided to give the food I had to several children not to the bhikkhus. Watching people ignore the children begging made me ask, "what is not right with this picture?"

because there are many who don't give for the sake of giving, for altruistic reasons, or simply to help, they give because they want something, they give because for them it is just another way to satisfy their own cravings...
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:33 am

pariyatti wrote:Why do we turn away from people begging for food in our day to day life, and yet offer food so easily to those in robes? I was with friends and I decided to give the food I had to several children not to the bhikkhus. Watching people ignore the children begging made me ask, "what is not right with this picture?"


:clap:

I could not ignore a hungry child myself, how do they feel when they get ignored and others are given?

They're not begging because they are growing up in a palace with a limousine, a chauffeur and a private teacher.

Plus, they are still growing.

Food, anytime.

ANYTIME.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:35 am

acinteyyo wrote:
pariyatti wrote:Why do we turn away from people begging for food in our day to day life, and yet offer food so easily to those in robes? I was with friends and I decided to give the food I had to several children not to the bhikkhus. Watching people ignore the children begging made me ask, "what is not right with this picture?"

because there are many who don't give for the sake of giving, for altruistic reasons, or simply to help, they give because they want something, they give because for them it is just another way to satisfy their own cravings...



But people who give to monks may hope for the merits too...?
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:00 am

Annapurna wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:
pariyatti wrote:Why do we turn away from people begging for food in our day to day life, and yet offer food so easily to those in robes? I was with friends and I decided to give the food I had to several children not to the bhikkhus. Watching people ignore the children begging made me ask, "what is not right with this picture?"

because there are many who don't give for the sake of giving, for altruistic reasons, or simply to help, they give because they want something, they give because for them it is just another way to satisfy their own cravings...

But people who give to monks may hope for the merits too...?

sure, it always depents on intention.
does one give only because one wants to make merits or does one give to support, help and/or to practice generosity.
among other things bhikkhus are giving the chance to practice generosity by going for alms , they're not there to satisfy ones cravings.
in other words does one give without wanting a reward or does one give only when one gets something in reward.
true generosity doesn't contain a desire for getting some kind of reward.
giving may make merit and that's good, but making merit is just a positive side-effect.
if one only gives when there is a reward to get, then this has nothing to do with generosity, it is just an act of selfishness and one fails to make use of a good chance to practice the dhamma.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Being on the receiving end of having food so kindly given every morning was a wonderful practice of mudita.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby bodom » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:46 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Being on the receiving end of having food so kindly given every morning was a wonderful practice of mudita.


You were once ordained Tilt?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:07 pm

he posted a picture on here from waaaay back, early 70s.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:45 pm

acinteyyo wrote:among other things bhikkhus are giving the chance to practice generosity by going for alms , they're not there to satisfy ones cravings.


No, they're hungry, too, I would assume. It's not only selflessly giving others a chance to practice generosity. They need something to eat, plus are not supposed to work for an income.

if one only gives when there is a reward to get, then this has nothing to do with generosity, it is just an act of selfishness and one fails to make use of a good chance to practice the dhamma.


Sure.

Still, children are also hungry and I feel they are giving others a chance to feel selfless, just like monks.

The giver should be thankful...

Sorry, Zen, but fits.

The Giver Should Be Thankful

While Seietsu was the master of Engaku in Kamakura he required larger quarters, since those in which he was teaching were overcrowded. Umeza Seibei a merchant of Edo, decided to donate five hundred pieces of gold called ryo toward the construction of a more commodious school. This money he brought to the teacher.

Seisetsu said: "All right. I will take it."

Umezu gave Seisetsu the sack of gold, but he was dissatisfied with the attitude of the teacher. One might live a whole year on three ryo, and the merchant had not even been thanked for five hundred.

"In that sack are five hundred ryo," hinted Umeza.

"You told me that before," replied Seisetsu.

"Even if I am a wealthy merchant, five hundred ryo is a lot of money," said Umezu.

"Do you want me to thank you for it?" asked Seisetsi.

"You ought to," replied Umeza.

"Why should I?" inquired Seisetsu. "The giver should be thankful."


:anjali:

Love this story--
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Sobeh » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:54 pm

That story is ridiculous.

Kataññu Suttas (AN 2.31-32):

"Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful, doesn't acknowledge the help given to him. This ingratitude, this lack of acknowledgment is second nature among rude people. It is entirely on the level of a person of no integrity.

"A person of integrity is grateful & acknowledges the help given to him. This gratitude, this acknowledgment is second nature among fine people. It is entirely on the level of a person of integrity."

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:05 pm

[quote="Annapurna wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:among other things bhikkhus are giving the chance to practice generosity by going for alms , they're not there to satisfy ones cravings.

No, they're hungry, too, I would assume. It's not only selflessly giving others a chance to practice generosity. They need something to eat, plus are not supposed to work for an income.

emphasize added, I didn't say it would be the only reason why bhikkhus go for alms. maybe my phrasing wasn't as clear as I thought...

please keep in mind that my answer was a direct response to this:
acinteyyo wrote:
pariyatti wrote:Why do we turn away from people begging for food in our day to day life, and yet offer food so easily to those in robes? I was with friends and I decided to give the food I had to several children not to the bhikkhus. Watching people ignore the children begging made me ask, "what is not right with this picture?"

because there are many who don't give for the sake of giving, for altruistic reasons, or simply to help, they give because they want something, they give because for them it is just another way to satisfy their own cravings...

the ones who give only because they're out for merits and blessings from monks maybe ignore the children because of exactly those selfish reasons.
that's all I wanted to say...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:44 pm

Sure, sorry, I totally agree!

Thanks for making it clearer, I misunderstood.

best wishes to you

Anna
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:22 am

bodom wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Being on the receiving end of having food so kindly given every morning was a wonderful practice of mudita.


You were once ordained Tilt?

:anjali:
Four month as a novice. It was my "rains retreat." This was in late 1974. I ordained with the now Ajahn Munindo at Wat Bowan in Bangkok.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby Jetavana » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:50 am

Hi Thanks for all the good respond and good reasoning.

Dana or giving is a meritorious deeds
, be it giving to whom, with the only difference being the amount of merits done.

Offering to a Buddha is highest, then comes Ariya Arhats, One-Returnee, 7-lives Returnee etc, Meditating/Vinaya holding Monks/Vinaya holding Monks, Chanting Monks, normal people and beggars etc.

A hungry children being seeds sowed in past lives with present suffering deeds, and offering food to them do receive merits and even offering food to fish and animals do receive merits too.

The questions is the level of merits that can be accumulated.

Meditation accumulate the highest merit, follow by building temples or Dharma results projects, Sanghika Dana, alms offering monks, giving to needy and to beggars etc.

Even to those who has successfully grasped Upheka and Anatta, it is he himself that see the non-difference in the level of merits, but by the Law of Karma, the level of meritorious deeds is still there.

If one who is 100% sure of achieving to an Ariya by this life time, he need not perform any meritorious deeds. But one who will still be reborn to cultivate, even in future lives to be a monkhood, merits is still needed, when going around for alms where there are food offered etc.

Maha Moggallana has to repay his Karma for bringing his Parents to Robbers in past live, where even after becoming an Arhats, he has to repay the deeds with his body pounded into shreds, though having escaped 2 times (one through the door keyhole and another time through the Chimney).

Metta

Jet.

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby fabianfred » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:19 am

http://www.flickr.com/photos/iamguava/2 ... otostream/

I have stopped on my alms-round and given stuff to kids..... it is a great feeling to share and they appreciate it...but sometimes the adults look askance because they think I should consume the offerings myself. Not possible when we get too much....a monk can get by on a very lean diet since there is little exercise, and being on the edge of hunger is good for meditation because it keeps you sharp and not drowsy. Food isn't usually wasted anyway as there are beggers and drunks who come looking for food and always the hungry dogs, and birds and fish etc.
I go often to a school we opened for children of Shan migrant workers near the burmese border, so i save anything like milk, sweets, cookies, cakes, tinned fish, noodles etc. to take to them....a very little goes a long way and is much appreciated by them.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=412174601988
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 172&ref=mf
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... =529691988
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... =529691988

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:44 am

fabianfred wrote:http://www.flickr.com/photos/iamguava/2531747939/sizes/m/in/photostream/

I have stopped on my alms-round and given stuff to kids..... it is a great feeling to share and they appreciate it...but sometimes the adults look askance because they think I should consume the offerings myself. Not possible when we get too much....a monk can get by on a very lean diet since there is little exercise, and being on the edge of hunger is good for meditation because it keeps you sharp and not drowsy. Food isn't usually wasted anyway as there are beggers and drunks who come looking for food and always the hungry dogs, and birds and fish etc.
I go often to a school we opened for children of Shan migrant workers near the burmese border, so i save anything like milk, sweets, cookies, cakes, tinned fish, noodles etc. to take to them....a very little goes a long way and is much appreciated by them.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=412174601988
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 172&ref=mf
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... =529691988
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=1 ... =529691988

so are you ordained now or was it just a temporary thing?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby fabianfred » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:45 am

I ordained as a novice on 9th May and monk on 21st July....... the story continues...... :anjali:

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby bodom » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Being on the receiving end of having food so kindly given every morning was a wonderful practice of mudita.


You were once ordained Tilt?

:anjali:
Four month as a novice. It was my "rains retreat." This was in late 1974. I ordained with the now Ajahn Munindo at Wat Bowan in Bangkok.


Very cool. Ajahn Munindo is a great teacher. I would love too see the pic.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Alms offering to Monkhood in the morning

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:51 am

bodom wrote:
Very cool. Ajahn Munindo is a great teacher. I would love too see the pic.
I'll scan a couple.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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