YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Experience (of?) Nibbana - Dhamma Wheel

Experience (of?) Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:22 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:37 am

There was a big, long thread on the now quite dead Gray Forum that was entitled "Nibbana IS." I sure hope not.

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:11 am

This could be an interesting can of worms.

I'm personally unconvinced at the moment that there is any event in particular characteristic of nibbana, besides the ending of the fetters, and so also dukkha. One doesn't practice in order to see (or not-see) nibbana for a flash and allow it to remove the fetters, but through our practice we weaken and break them, removing the potential for dukkha as we go until there is none left. Not any particular experience or non-experience, but a change in the way we relate to experience.

By our practice we come to understand the 3 characteristics and the 4 noble truths, and as this knowledge deepens craving and aversion are proportionately weakened, until they along with delusion in regard to the 4 noble truths are gone totally, and with that there is no more cause for the mind to become perturbed. And I suppose that I would argue that the knowledge of the stream enterer consists of an understanding of how this change in the way one relates to experience and how it could end dukkha is possible.

'Least that's what I'm thinking nowadays.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:28 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:35 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:42 am

Hi Tilt,

Sure, your translation is much nicer...

Mike

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:47 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:52 am


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:56 am


Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Freawaru » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:11 am


User avatar
Will
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Will » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:44 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:04 pm

Hi Mike

I go for the sudden moment explanation- a good similie from the suttas is the one about the chick cracking out of the egg. We just have to incubate.

When complete cessation of all sensory phenomena is 'seen' this is nibbana, at the end of the vipassana nana crescendo, (not at any other time).

It is accompanied by a withdrawal of attention ..to anything (since EVERYTHING is dukkha)... hence not unconscious... but not conscious either... all objects cease (Sabba sankhara samatha).

This 'middle path' in consciousness of the nibbana element seems to be root of debate amongst academics- not so among meditators. With meditative experiences sometimes concepts/words fail.

This ceasing is pleasant as much as when going from constant repititive noise (dhammas) to silent place (nibbana).

Some stream entrants can access this again and again in what is called 'phalasamawatha' (fruition absorption) and soon after stream entry there is a tendency to 'retreat' into nibbana again and again.

Arahanth and anagamins can access it in nirodhasamapatti if they have access to the arupa jhana. This can last as long as 7 days- but as long as they have a body they need to come back to it within this time.

The Buddha may have been able to access nibbana and not come back when he chose (Which is what he did).

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:44 pm

Rowyourboat-

If the experience of nibbana is the momentary cessation of all sensory phenomena, what they term "fruition", what is the difference between that and nirodha-samapatti?

Additionally, what is the difference between the "fruition" of the sotapanna vs sakadagami vs anagami vs arahant? My understanding of this scheme is that the stream entrant experiences a cessation/fruition, which breaks the first 3 fetters upon experiencing it, and so on for each of the stages of enlightenment. Clearly there must be a difference if one can attain a fruition again and again and yet not progress from one stage to the other upon having it.

What makes one experience of cessation cut off certain fetters while another experience of the same thing cut off other fetters? All consciousness zwoops on and off and then all of a sudden you no longer have any sense-craving or ill-will? I'm suspicious that such a thing can be done through anything but gradual practice. Or is it that you do need the gradual practice but the fruition is the "crescendo" which finally breaks the fetter? But then... why is that even necessary?
Last edited by Kenshou on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:59 pm


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:16 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:05 am


Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:48 am


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:07 am

Hi mike

Is there an embargo or disinterest in examining Abhidhamma material? The reason I ask is that I think, if memory serves me well, Abhi literature may have addressed this point of discussion.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:30 am

Last edited by mikenz66 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:36 am



Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kim OHara and 65 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine