Experience (of?) Nibbana

[tiltbillings]

The cessation of unsatisfactoriness/dukkha is the cessation of arising and passing away.

I think this may be the primary underlying point of difference. If an individual has no clinging or aversion for, no investment in those impermanent unreliable things which arise and pass away, where is there a foothold for stress?

Though all conditioned things may be dukkha in that they are unsatisfactory, an unsatisfactory thing is not itself a source of suffering unless you're trying, foolishly, to squeeze satisfaction out of it. If you let it be and don't get involved with it, there won't be suffering, or so I think. You'll suffer if you pick up a burning log, but you don't need to make the log disappear, you just need to not touch it.

Coming to understand that "not picking up the log" is what is primarily needed to not suffer is enough knowledge for verified confidence in the dhamma, I think.

"The cessation of unsatisfactoriness/dukkha is the cessation of arising and passing away" of things conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion. Kenshou, I agree with your assessment here.

[Virgo]

I think this may be the primary underlying point of difference. If an individual has no clinging or aversion for, no investment in those impermanent unreliable things which arise and pass away, where is there a foothold for stress?

Well said.

Kevin

[Nyana]

So would it be correct to say that you (and presumably Ven Nanananda, judging from those passages) see the fruition attainments as somewhat similar to the commentary versions (as far as that they are particular meditative states that are attained at fruition and can be revisited), but you would differ on some of the details of the fruition itself?

I would not agree that the path of stream entry is one mind moment in duration. Ven. Kheminda has offered a detailed survey of the relevant canonical sources on the subject in Path, Fruit and Nibbāna. As for the first three fruition attainments being meditative states that one can re-enter, as the thirty-seven factors of awakening are all supramundane (cf. Paṭisambhidāmagga), then whenever one who has attained the fruit of stream entry, etc., develops satipaṭṭhāna or any of the other factors of awakening, they are engaging in their respective fruition attainment.

So, correct me if I am wrong, there is said to be cessation of the sense-spheres because what is called contact is dependent upon the duality of the sense-faculty and it's object, a duality which is, though useful, ultimately papañca and conceptualization.

Dependent arising in its forward sequence is always a description of deluded cognition. When rooted in ignorance and craving, any experience automatically includes all of the first eleven links. That is, for the worldling there is always ignorance, contact, craving, grasping, becoming, and birth, which is the birth of a "being" (satta).

As Retro indicated in this post, this sets up the problem of separation and alienation -- i.e. the struggle for ego survival -- of "my being" in "the world." Whenever there is "a being" in "the world" there is going to arise circumstances of "my being" vs. "the world" (even kind people aren't exempt -- Jesus of Nazareth is one example that comes to mind). Thus the inevitability of dissatisfaction (dukkhadukkhatā: the unsatisfactoriness of pain; vipariṇāmadukkhatā: the unsatisfactoriness of change; saṅkhāradukkhatā: the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications), as well as pursuit of the eight worldly dhammas, etc., etc....

This proliferation and conceptualization ends simultaneously with the culmination of the understanding of impermanence, at which point the mind ceases to get caught up with or grasp onto anything, that is, becomes unestablished and non-manifestive/non-proliferating, including the proliferation of self-identification and volitions of clinging and aversion (which might all be summed up under "non-fashioning). When the duality which supports the notion of contact is gone, there cannot really said to be contact, nor consciousness or the "loka" of the six sense spheres, though it isn't that they've literally vanished.

I agree. When the four noble truths are fully penetrated, the entire deluded cognitive and conflicted affective edifice of the forward sequence of dependent arising immediately falls like a house of cards.

In Udāna 2.4 (Ud 12) a number of monks approach the Buddha and tell him that they are being harassed and verbally insulted by ascetics of other sects who are jealous of Buddha and the saṅgha. The Buddha's pithy reply ends with these lines:

• Contacts make contact
  Dependent on acquisition.
  Where there is no acquisition,
  What would contacts contact?

BTW, thanks for posting the excerpts from Ven. Ñāṇavīra. He may have been a bit off on a few details in some of his writings, but it's quite amazing how deeply he penetrated the dhamma.

The scheme of dependent origination is itself a sort of "wholesome" papañca which, at the end of the path, also has to be released. And though the arahant can choose to interact with the world and make use of conventional conceptualizations, the yoke that would bind his mind to them are cut off.

Yes.

[mikenz66]

Hi Geoff,

So would it be correct to say that you (and presumably Ven Nanananda, judging from those passages) see the fruition attainments as somewhat similar to the commentary versions (as far as that they are particular meditative states that are attained at fruition and can be revisited), but you would differ on some of the details of the fruition itself?

I would not agree that the path of stream entry is one mind moment in duration.

As I said, I wasn't concerned with details, simply whether or not the fruition is some sort of short-term meditative thing which can be retrurned to. So I take the following to be agreeing with that.

Ven. Kheminda has offered a detailed survey of the relevant canonical sources on the subject in Path, Fruit and Nibbāna. As for the first three fruition attainments being meditative states that one can re-enter, as the thirty-seven factors of awakening are all supramundane (cf. Paṭisambhidāmagga), then whenever one who has attained the fruit of stream entry, etc., develops satipaṭṭhāna or any of the other factors of awakening, they are engaging in their respective fruition attainment..

Thanks!

Mike

[Nyana]

So it is fetters which give rise to phenomena at the 6 sense bases
When fetters are broken/severely weakened sense impressions stop arising momentarily due to power of a special type of samadhi (anantarika samadhi). This is the culmination point of saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna.

Hi RYB,

I respectfully disagree with your realist interpretation. Sense impressions aren't the problem per se -- desire and passion (i.e. craving) arising dependent upon contact -- is what binds the "internal" sensory sphere and the "external" sensory sphere together. Thus, the solution is to relinquish all acquisitions and eliminate craving (third noble truth); then the very notions of "internal" vs. "external" and "contact" are rendered void.

• The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. -- SN 35.191 (PTS: S IV 162)

To see and understand the four noble truths in completion, to see the third noble truth, the truth of cessation (nirodha sacca) I think this must be perceived.

• That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321
  
  That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

All the best,

Geoff

[Kenshou]

Hey Geoff, thanks for your comments. I have one remaining question about all this. To what extent is non-attention to "signs", as seems to be explained the passages by ven. Ñāṇananda you've quoted, necessary for total dukkhanirodha, for the fruition of arahantship? I can understand how such a thing might occur, but it also seems to me that there is no harm in saññā continuing to do it's thing and perceive objects, though the individual would know that such perceptions are impermanent and selfless and so be liberated from any potential dukkha in regards to perception, and yet it does not necessarily need to switched off into animitta-mode.

I'm trying to strip this down to the bare bones in regard to the cessation of dukkha, you see, since that's really the whole point.

[Nyana]

Hey Geoff, thanks for your comments. I have one remaining question about all this. To what extent is non-attention to "signs", as seems to be explained the passages by ven. Ñāṇananda you've quoted, necessary for total dukkhanirodha, for the fruition of arahantship? I can understand how such a thing might occur, but it also seems to me that there is no harm in saññā continuing to do it's thing and perceive objects, though the individual would know that such perceptions are impermanent and selfless and so be liberated from any potential dukkha in regards to perception, and yet it does not necessarily need to switched off into animitta-mode.

The "sign" that must be abandoned with regard to any phenomenon is the sign of permanence (cf. Paṭisambhidāmagga). The apperception of impermanence and signs of permanence are mutually exclusive. They cannot occur together.

I'm trying to strip this down to the bare bones in regard to the cessation of dukkha, you see, since that's really the whole point.

Indeed.

All the best,

Geoff

[Kenshou]

Ah, yes, upon rereading the quotes from Ñāṇananda that does seem to be the point. Thanks.

So then it is not perception that is the problem but the perception of permanence that causes one to grasp at something with the misguided hope of it providing lasting satisfaction.

[rowyourboat]

In defence of void...!

AN 9.34 PTS: A iv 414
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

See also: AN 9.42

[Nyana]

In defence of void...!

AN 9.34 PTS: A iv 414

Not all arahants are liberated both ways. SN 12.70 and AN 4.87 tell us of arahants liberated through discernment who don't have any of the formless attainments. Without mastery of the formless attainments one cannot attain the cessation of apperception and feeling.

Moreover, the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling (or any other vacuum state "attainment" of any duration that one might posit as asaṅkhata) cannot be synonymous with nibbāna because these states are impermanent. One enters them and one exits them. On the other hand, the complete elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion -- i.e. nibbāna -- is a not-conditioned (asaṅkhata) attainment which is irreversible. The other three fruitions are irreversible also, each with their respective degree of liberation.

All the best,

Geoff

[rowyourboat]

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

Hi Geoff,

Fruition absorptions contain the deepest amount detachment in any mental state imaginable. They don't arise because something has been gained but because something has been given up.

Note how Ven sariputta says that even the slightest sanna, the slightest arising is dukkha. While I agree that person may experience magga- phala citta and progress up the path without fruition absorptions or nirodha samapatti, these phenemena are 'living proof' that nibbana is a viable occurence. When arising and passing away ceases what remains is a negative 'space'. Absence cannot be impermanent, except conceptually. Coming out of these states concepts such as 'anicca and 'dukkha' start applying again. Note that Ven sariputta calls the above state nibbana, even though that absence itself does not last. I think those aryas known as 'body witness' may fall into those experiencing fruition absorptions.

With metta

RYB

[EricJ]

Somewhat related question:

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully pos­sessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Does the attainment of right view without effluents occur in the moment of Nibbana (or some other ariyan att/ainment)? Is it simultaneously the cause of unbinding and a result? (in that one is "nibbanized" through right view and fully possessed of right view in Nibbana)

To me, the language of the sutta seems to suggest an affirmative answer to these questions ("transcendent...whose mind is noble [meaning an ariyan?]...fully possessed of the noble path...whose mind is free from effluents").


Regards,
Eric

[Sunrise]

Does the attainment of right view without effluents occur in the moment of Nibbana (or some other ariyan att/ainment)?

I don't think so. It says:

right view in one developing the noble path

I think it is possible to possess right view as a practitioner who has not yet attained Nibbana. In fact, the right view without effluents is required for Nibbana (a factor of the path to nibbana).

[Sunrise]

IMO the right view without effluents does not necessarily mean that the person who has the view is free from all mental defilement (aka attained Nibbana) but it means that this "view" does not lead to defilement or asava (desire), which is why it is a factor of the path to enlightenment.

[EricJ]

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully pos­sessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Hello, Sunrise. I'm well acquainted with your view by now.

The idea that supramundane right view is concurrent with the achievement of awakening (or some ariyan status, possibly) would make supramundane right view simultaneously "a factor of the path" and "a factor of Awakening." Additionally, there is a distinction between a conceptual understanding of the right view required for liberation (namely, the Four Noble Truths) which is investigated in meditation and supports the path (saccanulomika sammaditthi) and direct penetration of these truths. (saccapativedha sammaditthi). I would argue that the latter is concurrent with enlightenment (or, possibly, some sort path attainment, as suggested by the statement "whose mind is noble," e.g. an ariyan?)

But even at this point the truths have not been penetrated, and thus the understanding achieved is still defective, a matter of concept rather than perception. To arrive at the experiential realization of the truths it is necessary to take up the practice of meditation — first to strengthen the capacity for sustained concentration, then to develop insight. Insight arises by contemplating the five aggregates, the factors of existence, in order to discern their real characteristics. At the climax of such contemplation the mental eye turns away from the conditioned phenomena comprised in the aggregates and shifts its focus to the unconditioned state, Nibbana, which becomes accessible through the deepened faculty of insight. With this shift, when the mind's eye sees Nibbana, there takes place a simultaneous penetration of all Four Noble Truths. By seeing Nibbana, the state beyond dukkha, one gains a perspective from which to view the five aggregates and see that they are dukkha simply because they are conditioned, subject to ceaseless change. At the same moment Nibbana is realized, craving stops; the understanding then dawns that craving is the true origin of dukkha. When Nibbana is seen, it is realized to be the state of peace, free from the turmoil of becoming. And because this experience has been reached by practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, one knows for oneself that the Noble Eightfold Path is truly the way to the end of dukkha.

This right view that penetrates the Four Noble Truths comes at the end of the path, not at the beginning. We have to start with the right view conforming to the truths, acquired through learning and fortified through reflection. This view inspires us to take up the practice, to embark on the threefold training in moral discipline, concentration, and wisdom. When the training matures, the eye of wisdom opens by itself, penetrating the truths and freeing the mind from bondage.

True, the sutta does say that supramundane right view occurs in "one developing the noble path" but this subject is qualified and described by the phrase "whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path." I think that this points to the idea that supramundane right view occurs simultaneously as a factor of the path (in that it frees the mind from effluents and allows for nibbuti) and a factor of Awakening (in that Awakening, among other things, is ultimate, "transcendent" right view/understanding). I don't see why the Buddha would describe the "one" who experiences the arising of this right view as "free from effluents," a state associated with Nibbana.

In one who has gone the full distance, is free from sorrow, is fully released in all respects, has abandoned all bonds:
no fever is found...Effluents ended, independent of nutriment, their pasture — emptiness & freedom without sign: their trail, like that of birds through space,
can't be traced.

Regards,
Eric