Experience (of?) Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Sunrise » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 am

Ñāṇa wrote:One who has attained the fruition of stream entry has abandoned identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), i.e. self-view (attānudiṭṭhi), but still hasn't abandoned craving for existence (bhavataṇhā), which includes craving for a high birth, i.e. desire for form existence (rūparāga).


Thanks Geoff. Can you please give me the sutta reference where this has been mentioned so? It seems surprising somewhat that it is possible to abandon the identity view and still have desire for continued existence. I was under the impression that the two are linked
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:32 pm

Sunrise wrote:Can you please give me the sutta reference where this has been mentioned so? It seems surprising somewhat that it is possible to abandon the identity view and still have desire for continued existence. I was under the impression that the two are linked

Hi Sunrise,

    There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters. [AN 10.13]


    In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

    In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

    In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

    In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.

    In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. [MN 118]

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:13 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Note how Ven sariputta says that even the slightest sanna, the slightest arising is dukkha.

Hi RYB,

There can be no gnosis (ñāṇa) without saññā.


Nana is with sanna. But your assumption is that nana is the same as vimutti, is not correct. Nana at it's highest pitch does something to the mind- that is sabbe sankhara samatha- the cessation of all fabrications- nibbana.

Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:While I agree that person may experience magga- phala citta and progress up the path without fruition absorptions....

This is all commentarial jargon. The only fruitional samādhi mentioned in the sutta-s is the aññāphala samādhi of an arahant.


The suttas support the commentarial (visuddhimagga/mahasi sayadaw) understanding of the sotapanna state for example (and the path to get there). See below how a sotapanna perceives insight knowledges in line with the purifcations and the insight knowledges.

Knows and Sees Nama (Phassa, Vedana, Sanna, Cetana, and Thanha)
Knows and Sees Rupa (dhathu, sense doors)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#okkanta

Knows and Sees Vinnana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Understands Cause and Effect (has uncommon knowledge, knows saddhamma, doesn’t fall away, suffering is limited)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Knows and Sees the Paticcasamuppada

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

No doubt (does not think `did I exist etc.)- Avyakata sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Knows and sees anicca, dukkha, anatta (tilakkana) –also contemplates in this manner

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Sees arising and passing away (sandittika,akalika,ehipassiko,opaniko, paccattan veditabo vinnu)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

perceives Nibbida, Viraga, Nirodha-

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

understands the Four Noble Truths

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

experiences nibbana

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Ñāṇa wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Absence cannot be impermanent, except conceptually.

Even the commentaries admit that cessation of apperception and feeling is not asaṅkhata (cf. Kathāvatthu).


"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

When you read the above it can be known that to see nibbana and nirodhasamapatti are both complete cessation. Ven Sariputta clearly uses nirodhasampatti to explain the experience of nibbana. It does not say that nirodhasamapatti is not asankhata. I suggest we stick to the suttas and not dip into the commentaries as we may pick and choose the bits of commentary which favours our particular view of the dhamma.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana

Postby Nyana » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:09 am

rowyourboat wrote:It does not say that nirodhasamapatti is not asankhata. I suggest we stick to the suttas and not dip into the commentaries as we may pick and choose the bits of commentary which favours our particular view of the dhamma.

Hi RYB,

You're the one who accepts the authority of the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga. Therefore, it seems that you're the one who wishes to pick and choose. It's an established tenet of the Mahāvihāra tradition standardized by Ven. Buddhaghoṣa that nirodhasamāpatti is neither supramundane nor asaṅkhata. Visuddhimagga 23.52:

    As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

rowyourboat wrote:The suttas support the commentarial (visuddhimagga/mahasi sayadaw) understanding of the sotapanna state for example (and the path to get there). See below how a sotapanna perceives insight knowledges in line with the purifcations and the insight knowledges.

According to the Mahāvihāra tradition standardized by Ven. Buddhaghoṣa the path of stream entry is merely one mind moment in duration, followed by two or three fruition mind moments. This doesn't accord with the sutta-s or the Abhidhammapiṭaka.

rowyourboat wrote:Nana at it's highest pitch does something to the mind- that is sabbe sankhara samatha- the cessation of all fabrications- nibbana.

Bad translation and therefore meaningless conclusion.

All the best,

Geoff
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