I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

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I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Confined to the Present Lifetime
1
2%
Function in All Lifetimes
34
76%
Uncertain What I Believe
3
7%
Kamma & its Effects Irrelevant
0
No votes
Deny Kamma & its Effects
0
No votes
Fie on All Polls
7
16%
 
Total votes : 45

I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:57 pm

This is so edifying - right?
Last edited by Will on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby Sobeh » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:12 pm

My answer is to cite the Acintita Sutta (AN 4.77) as well as the Kamma Sutta (SN 35.145). Unfortunately, these were not in the list of possible responses. Perhaps an "Other; please specify" selection?

:group:
Last edited by Sobeh on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby Will » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:16 pm

Sobeh wrote:My answer is to cite the Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable (AN 4.77).


The poll asks nothing about how kamma-vipaka works in detail, just what you believe about kamma & its effects.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:18 pm

I would suggest trying to stop believing and having all these various 'positions' and rather try to start seeing!
MN72 wrote:"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."


If there would be the option: "Fie on all "I believe..." polls", I would vote for it without hesitation.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sobeh » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:19 pm

Yup - edited post in the meantime to include the rest of my answer.

I have no problem with polls, but I do have a problem with poorly constructed polls.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby Will » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:37 pm

acinteyyo wrote:I would suggest trying to stop believing and having all these various 'positions' and rather try to start seeing!
MN72 wrote:"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."


If there would be the option: "Fie on all "I believe..." polls", I would vote for it without hesitation.

best wishes, acinteyyo


You do not care for faith or belief in the Dhamma I gather?
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:38 pm

Sobeh wrote:Yup - edited post in the meantime to include the rest of my answer.

I have no problem with polls, but I do have a problem with poorly constructed polls.


Please construct one correctly - I want to learn.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:40 pm

What is it the texts say... "now and in the future"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:15 pm

Will wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I would suggest trying to stop believing and having all these various 'positions' and rather try to start seeing!
MN72 wrote:"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception... such are mental fabrications... such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsession with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."
If there would be the option: "Fie on all "I believe..." polls", I would vote for it without hesitation.

You do not care for faith or belief in the Dhamma I gather?

Faith and beliefs do have their avail. The thing is, if one is satisified with having faith and beliefs, one won't ever put enough effort in seeing things as they are, thus one won't ever go beyond faith and beliefs.
SN1,20 wrote:[...]this Dhamma is visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves

Why settle for beliefing in this Dhamma, which is uncertain, which is nothing more but mere assumption, suppositon, guesswork, when this Dhamma is visible here & now, to known by the wise?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby Will » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:05 pm

"Settling" for belief is your unwarrented assumption acinteyyo. But since faith comes first, there is nothing wrong about saying belief has value, as it is. When one chooses to verify the Dhamma, fine, do so when one is ready. But to sneer at those at the lower stage of faith and belief will not help your superior practice of seeing things as they are.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:44 pm

Will wrote: When one chooses to verify the Dhamma, fine, do so when one is ready. But to sneer at those at the lower stage of faith and belief will not help your superior practice of seeing things as they are.

Yes, as in this sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:56 am

Sobeh wrote:My answer is to cite the Acintita Sutta (AN 4.77) as well as the Kamma Sutta (SN 35.145). Unfortunately, these were not in the list of possible responses. Perhaps an "Other; please specify" selection?

:group:


For our reading convenience it would be lovely if you could provide the quote in your post, so that we don't have to leave the page...

Please?? :smile:
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:41 am

I voted for in all lifetimes.

Even IF there were no rebirth in a literal sense, and only one life for each being, as in the Christian sense, it is easy to see that things parents did will affect their children and grandchildren, quite like here, only that Buddhist don't think Kamma is about getting punished or rewarded. It`s just dependant arising.

I ....am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,


But the wording is actually secondary.

The result is always the same: do evil things, and it will backfire badly.

Do good things, you will inherit "good" kamma.

And the results can be far reaching. They often ripen much later, in generations to come.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:44 am

Annapurna wrote:
Sobeh wrote:My answer is to cite the Acintita Sutta (AN 4.77) as well as the Kamma Sutta (SN 35.145). Unfortunately, these were not in the list of possible responses. Perhaps an "Other; please specify" selection?

:group:


For our reading convenience it would be lovely if you could provide the quote in your post, so that we don't have to leave the page...

Please?? :smile:

How about a link?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:36 am

Very kind of you, Mike! Ty!

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:51 am

Will wrote:"Settling" for belief is your unwarrented assumption acinteyyo. But since faith comes first, there is nothing wrong about saying belief has value, as it is. When one chooses to verify the Dhamma, fine, do so when one is ready. But to sneer at those at the lower stage of faith and belief will not help your superior practice of seeing things as they are.

You're right, it has its value. As I said before: Faith and beliefs do have their avail.
In your eyes it may be an unwarranted assumption, but what I see are people wasting a lot of time with proclaiming their views and beliefs. They do not practice to get over beliefs, all they do is just talking all the time.
I agree with what mike posted:
Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction[...]

I myself still have faith and beliefs too, but imho it's enough to "take it on conviction" and put things into practice, instead of proclaiming and talking a lot about what one believes or not believes.
Past is stupid,
Future is stupid,
Present is Dhamma.
Past is drunkenness
and future pure unreason.
Only present makes cleared up.
Keep this in mind, until you are sure.
Stop with the talking, because too much talking isn't Dhamma.
It's stupid.
(LP Wän Sucinno)


I also agree that when one chooses to verify the Dhamma, that's fine, may do so when one is ready.
All I did was making a suggestion, which may bring someone to start verifying the Dhamma through practice.
You put the notion of sneer into it. I wrote these posts, without any such kind of intention. I'm responsible only for what I say, not for what others might understand.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:41 pm

I see kamma within this lifetime as that is verifiable. If I direct my mind, words or body in misconduct in this life I will see the results of those in this lifetime. If I kill someone I will go to prison. Even if I didn't go to prison, I would still mentally suffer, feeling guilty, scared, angry, frustrated etc. Kamma, as I see it, is visible moment to moment. This moment's mentality/action effecting the mental or physical body in the next moment. If I get angry and scold someone, I may feel upset for some time. If I plan to lie to my boss, I will feel anxious when I walk into office. The results of the way you direct your mind is visible in that moment or later

Having said that, the Buddha has advised in the AN not to speculate about kamma and results. IMO, it is unhealthy and useless to speculate such as "I am poor today because I didn't give enough to the poor in my previous birth" etc. That doesn't make much sense except maybe for morality
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:33 pm

Sunrise wrote:I see kamma within this lifetime as that is verifiable. If I direct my mind, words or body in misconduct in this life I will see the results of those in this lifetime. If I kill someone I will go to prison. Even if I didn't go to prison, I would still mentally suffer, feeling guilty, scared, angry, frustrated etc. Kamma, as I see it, is visible moment to moment. This moment's mentality/action effecting the mental or physical body in the next moment. If I get angry and scold someone, I may feel upset for some time. If I plan to lie to my boss, I will feel anxious when I walk into office. The results of the way you direct your mind is visible in that moment or later

Having said that, the Buddha has advised in the AN not to speculate about kamma and results. IMO, it is unhealthy and useless to speculate such as "I am poor today because I didn't give enough to the poor in my previous birth" etc. That doesn't make much sense except maybe for morality



I totally agree with your post, Sunrise. I think the sutta you refer to is probably 'Unconjecturable' AN 4.77....oh, I notice it was already mentioned by Sobeh earlier in the thread. My apologies ! :D (Hiyah Sobeh :heart: )


.


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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby AdvaitaJ » Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:50 am

First off, I voted "for all lifetimes". There may only be one lifetime, or there may be many. So..."for all lifetimes works fine for me. I especially liked Anna's comment about parents kamma affecting their children, grandchildren, etc.

Second, I think these sorts of polls, even those that are not very well constructed, serve a very useful purpose here. If we had the benefits of face-to-face communication and contact, they'd be a waste of time. But in this two-dimensional digital world, they serve the very useful purpose of "asking the group" and providing the option to comment. If we were all gathered together physically, we'd be able to see "eyes roll" or see "heads nod" in agreement when one or the other of us made a public statement. But here, we show up when who knows when, read who knows what, and make all sorts of gestures that emoticons just can't handle.

So...I like the polls, but more importantly, I think we need to examine why the author is asking. Are they wrestling with doubt? Trying to gain assurance that an experience they've had is truly meaningful? Perhaps they're trying to determine if they're in the "right part of town" or on the "wrong side of the tracks" if that's not too American an expression.

Regards: Jim
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:57 am

Aloka wrote:I totally agree with your post, Sunrise. I think the sutta you refer to is probably 'Unconjecturable' AN 4.77....oh, I notice it was already mentioned by Sobeh earlier in the thread. My apologies ! :D (Hiyah Sobeh :heart: )



Thanks Aloka and Sobeh for the sutta. I always forget the exact number :D
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