I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

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I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Confined to the Present Lifetime
1
2%
Function in All Lifetimes
34
76%
Uncertain What I Believe
3
7%
Kamma & its Effects Irrelevant
0
No votes
Deny Kamma & its Effects
0
No votes
Fie on All Polls
7
16%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Anicca » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:12 pm

Greetings Bodom, love to make partial repayment!
bodom wrote:There is a sutta somewhere in which the Buddha states that Arahants use conventional language, and use words like "I" "me and "mine" but do not cling to them. Anyone know which one im thinking of?


Maybe DN 9 Potthapada Sutta
"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."


or

SN 1.25 Araha.m Sutta
[Deva:]
He who's an Arahant, his work achieved,
Free from taints, in final body clad,
That monk still might use such words as "I."
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
...
Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]
Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1]
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech,
He would speak conforming to such use.


Hope this helps

Metta
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Will wrote:
PeterB: In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.


If the notion of jumping on the use of personal pronouns by Buddhists were unique to PeterB and I were motivated personally against "you" (O dear), then PeterB might be right - but such is not the case at all.

The use of personal pronouns is fine and anyone who thinks a philosophical blunder manifests when they are used - is being silly.

That would indeed be silly. I agree with you. I have no problem with personal pronouns. In fact I have no problem with the idea that you and I have separate existences in the conventional sense...in fact I will go further and say that as far as I know this conventional existence is all that exists...but in the course of time I might know otherwise for myself rather than as an idea that rather appeals to me. .
Which still begs the question who or what inherits kamma vipaka...and the answer the Buddha gives is both clear and very subtle. And I would suggest that anyone who thinks that they can summarise it in a sound bite is unlikely to have exhausted its subtlety.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:13 pm

Hi Sunrise,
Sunrise wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Sitting in jail and getting food and talking to lawyers and psychiatrists...does it makes up for the suffering that was done to young people and what was done to their poor parents


You could say the same about venerable Angulimala who died from getting stoned by some who wanted to seek revenge. It is due to his bad actions in the past that he had enemies from whome he suffered death. You could always argue that the enlightened Angulimala did not suffer as much as his victims.

I completely agree with your point, that kamma and fruit is not a punishment that has to balance. However, I think you're slightly mistaken about the stoning of Angulimala. He was stoned, but not killed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el312.html
There is no other record about Angulimala's later period of life than what himself said in the verses which follow. These tell us that he lived in such solitary places as forests, caves, and mountains and that, having finally made the right choice in his life, he spent his days in happiness.

I may have mentioned before that a probation officer who I know finds the Angulimala Sutta very inspiring...

Mike
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby bodom » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:03 pm

Anicca wrote:
"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."


[Deva:]He who's an Arahant, his work achieved,
Free from taints, in final body clad,
That monk still might use such words as "I."
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
...
Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]

Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1]
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech,
He would speak conforming to such use.


Those are the ones! I thought it might be in the first book of SN but was looking in Udana and Itivuttaka as well because I knew it was in verse form. Thanks for the help!

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Lazy_eye » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:46 pm

I believe kamma functions across all lifetimes, but I don't believe it can be used to explain (in a meaningful way) everything that happens to us. Some things are more usefully explained with reference to natural law, physics, genetics, economics and the inherent volatility of life on this planet. Retroactive use of kamma to account for individual people's present life circumstances is very iffy. There were good reasons why the Buddha said the workings of kamma are imponderable.

Is this a revisionist view?

LE
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:59 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:I believe kamma functions across all lifetimes, but I don't believe it can be used to explain (in a meaningful way) everything that happens to us. Some things are more usefully explained with reference to natural law, physics, genetics, economics and the inherent volatility of life on this planet. Retroactive use of kamma to account for individual people's present life circumstances is very iffy. There were good reasons why the Buddha said the workings of kamma are imponderable.

Is this a revisionist view?

I don't think so. See: SN 36.21 Sivaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There are cases where some feelings arise based on bile.[1] You yourself should know how some feelings arise based on bile. Even the world is agreed on how some feelings arise based on bile. So any priests & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those priests & contemplatives are wrong."

But read the helpful introduction...

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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:02 am

Lazy_eye wrote:I believe kamma functions across all lifetimes, but I don't believe it can be used to explain (in a meaningful way) everything that happens to us. Some things are more usefully explained with reference to natural law, physics, genetics, economics and the inherent volatility of life on this planet. Retroactive use of kamma to account for individual people's present life circumstances is very iffy. There were good reasons why the Buddha said the workings of kamma are imponderable.

Is this a revisionist view?

LE


Nope - here is a link about the Niyamas, only one of which is kamma: http://www.dhammaweb.net/html/view.php?id=5
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:50 pm

mikenz66 wrote:However, I think you're slightly mistaken about the stoning of Angulimala. He was stoned, but not killed.



Thanks for the correction Mike. I actually read this sometimes back and didn't remember that well

:namaste:
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:08 pm

Mike, Will, thanks for the links. I really appreciate that sutta. Another reminder of the Buddha's pragmatism when it came to such issues.

Will, do you think Mahayana looks at kamma/karma in the same way as Theravada does? I thought the five niyamas were found only in Theravada texts. I got the impression, perhaps wrongly, that Mahayana gives kamma a more universal scope and takes a somewhat more deterministic view.

:anjali:
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Mike, Will, thanks for the links. I really appreciate that sutta. Another reminder of the Buddha's pragmatism when it came to such issues.

Will, do you think Mahayana looks at kamma/karma in the same way as Theravada does? I thought the five niyamas were found only in Theravada texts. I got the impression, perhaps wrongly, that Mahayana gives kamma a more universal scope and takes a somewhat more deterministic view.

:anjali:


You are probably right Lazy, as far as paying little or no attention to the Niyamas and saying karma is a factor in earthquakes and other natural disasters. However Mahayana is no more "deterministic" than any other type of buddhadharma, so far as I know. Give an example or two of what you mean.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:49 am

Well, the so-called "Cause and Effect Sutra" gets quite specific and deterministic, to the point of explaining the karmic causes for dry mouth and various physical disabilities. It's not an authentic sutra, by the way -- just a teaching tool used in Mahayana temples. But it kind of goes against the whole "four imponderables" thing, if you ask me.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:10 am

Lazy_eye wrote:Well, the so-called "Cause and Effect Sutra" gets quite specific and deterministic, to the point of explaining the karmic causes for dry mouth and various physical disabilities. It's not an authentic sutra, by the way -- just a teaching tool used in Mahayana temples. But it kind of goes against the whole "four imponderables" thing, if you ask me.


Sutras are all by Buddha or inspired by Buddha and he does know all the details of karmic effects. We may not know the exact effects of our actions of body, speech & mind but high bodhisattvas, arhats & buddhas do.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:46 am

Maybe so, but some of this material veers close to past-life determinism and a linear view of kamma, which is at odds with how the subject is presented in the Pali Canon. That was my point.

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