I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

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I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Confined to the Present Lifetime
1
2%
Function in All Lifetimes
34
76%
Uncertain What I Believe
3
7%
Kamma & its Effects Irrelevant
0
No votes
Deny Kamma & its Effects
0
No votes
Fie on All Polls
7
16%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Annapurna » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:48 am

Sunrise wrote:I see kamma within this lifetime as that is verifiable. If I direct my mind, words or body in misconduct in this life I will see the results of those in this lifetime. If I kill someone I will go to prison. Even if I didn't go to prison, I would still mentally suffer, feeling guilty, scared, angry, frustrated etc. Kamma, as I see it, is visible moment to moment. This moment's mentality/action effecting the mental or physical body in the next moment. If I get angry and scold someone, I may feel upset for some time. If I plan to lie to my boss, I will feel anxious when I walk into office. The results of the way you direct your mind is visible in that moment or later

Having said that, the Buddha has advised in the AN not to speculate about kamma and results. IMO, it is unhealthy and useless to speculate such as "I am poor today because I didn't give enough to the poor in my previous birth" etc. That doesn't make much sense except maybe for morality


If I get angry and scold someone, I may feel upset for some time. If I plan to lie to my boss, I will feel anxious when I walk into office. The results of the way you direct your mind is visible in that moment or later


Yes, smaller offences work in that way, I totally agree with you.

I also agree with you that he said speculating about kamma is useless, but he also laid out in detail what can be expected after what.

5. "Here, student, some woman or man is a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. If, on the dissolution of the body, after death, instead of his reappearing in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, he comes to the human state, he is short-lived wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to short life, that is to say, to be a killer of living beings, murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings.

From:

The shorter exposition of kamma



Even if I didn't go to prison, I would still mentally suffer, feeling guilty, scared, angry, frustrated etc. Kamma, as I see it, is visible moment to moment.


I also agree with you that some criminals will feel guilty and will regret.....but it requires an understanding of right and wrong and compassion, but some don''t haved that,...compared to the immense suffering they caused.

We know that many criminals don't regret, -some have no compassion, as a 'mental disorder', and really enjoy remembering their crimes and watching their videos, so actually, they're in "heaven", while doing so...!

And if a perpetrator suddenly dies, like in his sleep, without having suffered an equivalent of the suffering he caused to the victims and their suffering what's up with the kamma that is left? It can't be "leveled" in this life anymore, because life is over.

So does kamma vanish with his body?

I also don't think that the suffering a murderer goes through by spending time in jail or on deathrow will be an equivalent of the sufferings his victms went through, if you think of serial killers like Ted Bundy or Jürgen Bartsch.

Jürgen Bartsch was a sadistic serial killer who tortured 4 boys to death, by cutting off their fingers and limbs piece by piece, alive. He found they died too quickly, so he did his best that they stayed alive long enough to enjoy their suffering.

It took days til they died with cut off fingers.

One youth managed to escape and Jürgen Bartsch was captured. He said he really regretted his deeds, but couldn't help it. He said he would do it again if he ever got out again.

And so he agreed to a castration, but peacefully died during the operation.

We can't measure suffering, how could we possibly know?

But somehow, his own suffering seems unproportional to the excruciating pain, panic, desparation and deep sadness his young victims went through, 4 lives gone there, only 1 on his side, 4 horrible deaths... are they equivalent to one whilst asleep, is dying with all ten fingers intact equivalent to dying with all 10 cut off while conscious, and not in one cut, no...

Sitting in jail and getting food and talking to lawyers and psychiatrists...does it makes up for the suffering that was done to young people and what was done to their poor parents, who will never get over it, is that kamma really dealt with in this life, it as you say, and as you say speculation is pointless, but I personally think, there is an imbalance.

Since I accept multiple lives, I think there is a good chance this kamma will affect future lives.

Just some thoughts, and nobody has to agree, needless to say.

Metta,

Annapurna
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:41 am

It seem there are two views about kamma- 1) that it is dependantly arisen- understandable- cause and effect= if you do something wrong you will feel bad/get punished by society.
2) the kamma is a force, much like gravity and that if you kill, you will be killed in future lifetimes (if not this lifetime). Pondering this can drive a person mad. The Buddha was able to see the effects of actions of past lives using his special abilities.

I know 1) and believe in 2).

Not believing in kamma is bad kamma! All about kamma here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

with metta

RYB
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:47 am

Greetings,

I don't believe in Jataka-kamma. 8-)

I believe in Sutta kamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:08 am

rowyourboat wrote:It seem there are two views about kamma- 1) that it is dependantly arisen- understandable- cause and effect= if you do something wrong you will feel bad/get punished by society.
2) the kamma is a force, much like gravity and that if you kill, you will be killed in future lifetimes (if not this lifetime). Pondering this can drive a person mad. The Buddha was able to see the effects of actions of past lives using his special abilities.

I know 1) and believe in 2).

Not believing in kamma is bad kamma! All about kamma here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

with metta

RYB

Who is this " you" that will be killed " in a future lifetime " rowyourboat ?
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Nyana » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:I believe in Sutta kamma.


Indeed. This present life affords us a rare and precious opportunity to hear and practice the dhamma. AN 8.29 Akkhaṇa Sutta:

    Bhikkhus, there are eight times, eight instances not suitable to lead the holy life. What eight?

    Here, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born in hell. Bhikkhus, this is the first unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

    Again, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born in the animal world. Bhikkhus, this is the second unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

    Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born in the sphere of ghosts ...

    Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born as a certain god with long life ...

    Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born to someone in the bordering states among not learned Barbarians, where bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male or female are not seen. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

    Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born to someone in the central states, he is with wrong view, with a perverted view- There are no results for giving gifts, there are no results for an offering, for a sacrifice. There are no results for good and evil actions. There is no this world, there is no other world. There is no mother, no father. There are no beings spontaneously arisen. In this world there are no recluses and Brahmins who have come to the right path and having realized by themselves declare it ... re ...

    Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born to someone in the central states without wisdom, with saliva dripping, not able to discriminate between good and evil words to know something. Bhikkhus, this is the seventh unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

    Again, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One worthy and rightfully enlightened ... re ... Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness extinction preached by the Well Gone One is not preached. This person is born to someone in the central states wise, without saliva dripping, able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings. Bhikkhus, this is the eighth unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

    Bhikkhus, there is one right instance to lead the holy life, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born to someone in the central states wise, without saliva dripping, able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings. Bhikkhus, this is the only instance to lead the holy life.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Shonin » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:21 am

Other: I can observe my kamma affecting all beings, in every direction, in all lifetimes
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:03 pm

PeterB wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:It seem there are two views about kamma- 1) that it is dependantly arisen- understandable- cause and effect= if you do something wrong you will feel bad/get punished by society.
2) the kamma is a force, much like gravity and that if you kill, you will be killed in future lifetimes (if not this lifetime). Pondering this can drive a person mad. The Buddha was able to see the effects of actions of past lives using his special abilities.

I know 1) and believe in 2).

Not believing in kamma is bad kamma! All about kamma here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

with metta

RYB

Who is this " you" that will be killed " in a future lifetime " rowyourboat ?


Who is this 'PeterB' that I am answering this question to?
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:35 pm

According to the Buddha the PeterB that you are talking to is comprised of five kandhas arising as a result of certain conditions ,and in a state of constant flux.
So who or what gets to inherit the result of action ?
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sobeh » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:14 pm

PeterB wrote: So who or what gets to inherit the result of action ?


The Bhara Sutta answers you:

The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden.

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden."

Who or what inherits the kammavipaka? The carrier of the burden.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:37 pm

Annapurna wrote:I also agree with you that some criminals will feel guilty and will regret.....but it requires an understanding of right and wrong and compassion, but some don''t haved that


Regret is just an example. A criminal's mental state is, in almost all cases, agitated. It is not peaceful. So, feelings of guilt is just an example but it can be anger, frustration, fear, constantly having to be in the look out etc. It's not peaceful
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:47 pm

Annapurna wrote:And if a perpetrator suddenly dies, like in his sleep, without having suffered an equivalent of the suffering he caused to the victims and their suffering what's up with the kamma that is left?


You think kamma is some cosmic punishment system to equally punish and reward bad and good actions? :rolleye:

If a guy who killed 100s of people later identified his mistakes and lead a good life, that will be it. He will die as a peaceful man. Ever heard of those stories of angulimala? He was a killer in the Buddha's days who killed 1000s of people and later he became a Buddhist disciple and became enlightened. Despise killing so many people, he found peace in life later by rightfully directing his mind.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:55 pm

Annapurna wrote:Jürgen Bartsch was a sadistic serial killer who tortured 4 boys to death, by cutting off their fingers ...


Angulimala was a serial killer who killed people, cut off their fingers. Anguli means fingers. Mala means necklace. He apparently made a necklace of human fingers: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el312.html

He later became a Buddhist disciple and became enlightened in the same lifetime by identifying his mistakes and directing his mind in the right way.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:03 pm

Sobeh wrote:
PeterB wrote: So who or what gets to inherit the result of action ?


The Bhara Sutta answers you:

The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden.

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden."

Who or what inherits the kammavipaka? The carrier of the burden.

So lay that burden down. Or better, dont pick it up.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:09 pm

Annapurna wrote:Sitting in jail and getting food and talking to lawyers and psychiatrists...does it makes up for the suffering that was done to young people and what was done to their poor parents


You could say the same about venerable Angulimala who died from getting stoned by some who wanted to seek revenge. It is due to his bad actions in the past that he had enemies from whome he suffered death. You could always argue that the enlightened Angulimala did not suffer as much as his victims.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:12 pm

PeterB wrote:So lay that burden down. Or better, dont pick it up.


Which is what venerable Angulimala did
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:20 pm

PeterB wrote:According to the Buddha the PeterB that you are talking to is comprised of five kandhas arising as a result of certain conditions ,and in a state of constant flux.
So who or what gets to inherit the result of action ?


Too fussy over words again. Buddha said the conventional use of "I" & "me" & "you" etc. is perfectly fine. Otherwise we end up with "head-talking" Dhamma, which looks, sounds and is - silly.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Perhaps Will we could agree to approach these issues in ways that seem sensible to ourselves. And what is silly to you may not be silly to me and vice versa.
I cannot approach Dhamma as you do. I dont expect you to approach Dhamma as I do.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:47 pm

rowyourboat wrote:
PeterB wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:It seem there are two views about kamma- 1) that it is dependantly arisen- understandable- cause and effect= if you do something wrong you will feel bad/get punished by society.
2) the kamma is a force, much like gravity and that if you kill, you will be killed in future lifetimes (if not this lifetime). Pondering this can drive a person mad. The Buddha was able to see the effects of actions of past lives using his special abilities.

I know 1) and believe in 2).

Not believing in kamma is bad kamma! All about kamma here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html

with metta

RYB

Who is this " you" that will be killed " in a future lifetime " rowyourboat ?


Who is this 'PeterB' that I am answering this question to?

In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby Will » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:37 pm

PeterB: In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.


If the notion of jumping on the use of personal pronouns by Buddhists were unique to PeterB and I were motivated personally against "you" (O dear), then PeterB might be right - but such is not the case at all.

The use of personal pronouns is fine and anyone who thinks a philosophical blunder manifests when they are used - is being silly.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Postby bodom » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:28 pm

Will wrote:
PeterB: In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.


If the notion of jumping on the use of personal pronouns by Buddhists were unique to PeterB and I were motivated personally against "you" (O dear), then PeterB might be right - but such is not the case at all.

The use of personal pronouns is fine and anyone who thinks a philosophical blunder manifests when they are used - is being silly.


There is a sutta somewhere in which the Buddha states that Arahants use conventional language, and use words like "I" "me and "mine" but do not cling to them. Anyone know which one im thinking of?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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