YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Big square of rebirth in small round Xs - Dhamma Wheel

Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
lojong1
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:56 pm

Why have you--yes, you--translated punabbhava into rebirth?
'Rebirth' is already extremely busy hiding a host of other refugee definitions from various languages and traditions.
Paticca-samuppada says that birth (jaati) and becoming (bhaava) are not the same. Punabbhava is 'again-becoming.' If 'again-becoming' is unwieldy, why not use punabbhava? It has buddhist origins (unlike rebirth) and cannot yet be confused with any other word or context.

Why have you translated jaati...why upapajjati...etc...
..."X" as 'rebirth'?

Seeing the confusion in other buddhist rebirth threads, why don't we just stop using the word 'rebirth'?

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Big Square Xs in the Small Round of Rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:04 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:57 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:05 am

Greetings Alex,

An interesting example to use given that the "state of existence"s described are in the same "lifetime".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sunrise
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:03 am

DN15 is probably the only place where a womb is referred to in the pali out of the suttas that DO is talked about. I would seriously doubt its credibility not only because the DN is anyway believed to be a later addition by some but also because it is drastically different to the other suttas that talks about paticcasamuppada. It looks a lot like a later addition.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:43 am


lojong1
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:18 am

Alex123, I don't see an answer to the OP in your post. I don't mind if there is or isn't, I'm just letting you know that I don't see one.
If my questions are unclear, someone please let me know.
[quote="Alex123"]What else do you propose?[quote]
What else do I propose for what? Punabbhava? My #1 pick would be to keep to the original Pali 'punabbhava'. Otherwise re-becoming or re-being, until I hear another alternative that I don't find so obfuscating. I won't be using re-birth for puna-bbhava for reasons found in the same sutta you quoted, DN 15:
"'From becoming (bhava) as a requisite condition comes birth (jaati).' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. If there were no becoming at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., sensual becoming, form becoming, or formless becoming — in the utter absence of becoming, from the cessation of becoming, would birth be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for birth, i.e., becoming.
"'From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. If there were no clinging at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., clinging to sensuality, clinging to precepts and practices, clinging to views, or clinging to doctrines of the self — in the utter absence of clinging, from the cessation of clinging, would becoming be discerned?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for becoming, i.e., clinging."

I don't know why you quoted DN15. It contains neither 're-birth' in that particular English translation, nor punabbhava in the Pali, but would "be produced" is 'abhinibbattissathā'. Do you translate this as re-birth as well as puna-bbhava? Are they really synonymous? What other Pali words do you call re-birth?
DN 15 is a great defense for using the original pali instead of re-birth; using 'anhinibbatti' where abhinibbatti is meant, how many messy 'literal or moment-to-moment' re-birth arguments and qualifications could be avoided?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
"Becoming (bhāva) is the process..."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#b
"Bhava [bhava] -- Becoming."

Bhikkhu Bodhi in Nanamoli's MN: Bhava = "being" [is] the kammically determinative aspect of the present life that causes future birth..."

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3670
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:43 am

Why get reborn into endless nit-picking discussions about the meaning of words? Those from the Tibetan tradition often call it "Reincarnation," those from the Theravāda tradition usually called it "Rebirth." Whatever you call it, its still just more suffering.

Image
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:02 am

:anjali:

Sunrise
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:16 pm


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:23 pm

There are plenty of suttas in 4Nikayas that do talk about literal birth, aging and death, hells and heavens.

I believe them, and strait reading of the MANY suttas support that.


Of course the best possible thing would have been if there were no literal rebirth, and if there was only one life... Then we all would achieve parinibbana at death... That would be so awesome, and there would be very quick and easy shortcuts for Parinibbana. Too bad it might not be the case.

I apply pascal's wager. I'll do my best to learn, understand, develop wisdom and cut down fetters to stop rebirth as soon as conditions allow. If rebirth exists, it will be good. If there will be no continuation after this miserable life, then I won't mind :) .
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Sunrise
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:39 pm


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:03 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5517
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:42 pm


User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Big Square Xs in the Small Round of Rebirth?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:04 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:08 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:11 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

Sunrise
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:26 pm

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:08 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:36 pm


lojong1
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:49 pm

Last edited by lojong1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine