Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

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octathlon
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:52 pm

Fede wrote:Everybody who experiences pain, suffers pain, in the physically sensitive way. I cut myself, it hurts, you cut yourself - it still hurts.
But I don't dwell, lament, complain, bemoan, throw a hissy fit, that I cut myself. I simply think, "That was careless" and move on.
I suffer pain, but I do not suffer the mental lamentation of having suffered physical pain.

Hi Fede,
A cut? Sure, just move on. But let's not trivialize. There is an immense amount of physical suffering/dukkha in the world, that doesn't go away in 10 minutes like a cut-- relentless pain from hunger, disease, bodily deterioration, etc. That's the kind of pain I was referring to in my response.

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby bodom » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:06 pm

octathlon wrote:There is an immense amount of physical suffering/dukkha in the world, that doesn't go away in 10 minutes like a cut-- relentless pain from hunger, disease, bodily deterioration, etc. That's the kind of pain I was referring to in my response.


As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I am a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life. I am afflicted in body & ailing with every moment. And it is only rarely that I get to see the Blessed One & the monks who nourish the heart. May the Blessed One teach me, may the Blessed One instruct me, for my long-term benefit & happiness."

"So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself."


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:44 pm

Fede wrote:...if this entire discussion relates purely and simply to...

A: "2+2=4."
B: "Nope, I heartily disagree with that. Actually 2+2=4."

That was just more pain than I could handle. I'm "mad" now. :twothumbsup:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Fede » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:04 am

octathlon wrote:
Fede wrote:Everybody who experiences pain, suffers pain, in the physically sensitive way. I cut myself, it hurts, you cut yourself - it still hurts.
But I don't dwell, lament, complain, bemoan, throw a hissy fit, that I cut myself. I simply think, "That was careless" and move on.
I suffer pain, but I do not suffer the mental lamentation of having suffered physical pain.

Hi Fede,
A cut? Sure, just move on. But let's not trivialize. There is an immense amount of physical suffering/dukkha in the world, that doesn't go away in 10 minutes like a cut-- relentless pain from hunger, disease, bodily deterioration, etc. That's the kind of pain I was referring to in my response.

:anjali:

Please don't be patronising and accuse me of trivialising.
One of the greatest lessons I ever learnt on Suffering - the kind you describe - was from this man.
http://www.korubo.com/TIBETDOC/palden.htm
This was the same man who, once he reached Dharamsala, expressed that his greatest fear during all his years of incarceration, was that he would lose his Compassion for the Chinese.

I know and understand what you are talking about.
I was couching it in terms which would have made it easier for us to equate with.
Since you've upped the ante, I trust my example is adequately explanatory.
:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby octathlon » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:26 pm

Hi Fede,

I really wasn't trying to up an ante. I didn't dispute the correctness of your original statement or intend my post to be a personal attack on you. My reaction was an "ego-feeling-insulted response" about a perceived attitude in the way you expressed it--that word "optional", which I pointed out was only a perception. Sometimes I feel intense compassion for others, but other times I find it very difficult to feel any compassion. I feel guilty about that so I may have been projecting when I reacted to your statement. I wanted to stick up for all those people for whom, in our present state, it isn't optional.

The second one about not moaning and having a hissy fit about a cut, though, I did feel was trivializing the issue. :shrug:

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Fede » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:43 pm

tell you what - I'll say one our father and three hail Marys, if you say three Our fathers and one Hail Mary, how's that?

let's let it go. :hug:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby octathlon » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:16 pm

:group:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:59 pm

octathlon wrote:Sometimes I feel intense compassion

Now I've seen anukampaa [shaking-together?] in a few suttas, googled some defs and articles...what is the difference between it and karuna/symathy/compassion?
Did you feel anukampaa? karunaa? both? neither...a near enemy? How can you tell?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby octathlon » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:48 am

Blackwell Reference wrote: Anukampa The motivation which impels a Buddha and his Arahat disciples to teach. Anukampa, ‘sympathy’, which leads them to give help to the world at large, is distinguished from karuna, ‘compassion’, which refers to the meditational practice of extending compassion to all living beings. In later Buddhism, especially the Mahayana, karuna is used for both purposes and the concept of the wider compassion (mahakaruna) of a Buddha is introduced.
http://www.blackwellreference.com/publi ... 922_ss1-95


Reading the various definitions, I couldn't tell the difference between them. Only that entry I quoted above makes a distinction. Anyway, I felt it in English at the time. :tongue:

Also, I apologize for the off-topic intrusion into your thread. :stirthepot: Fede and I are done with that now. :)

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:44 pm

Of course the best possible thing would have been if there were no literal rebirth, and if there was only one life... Then we all would achieve parinibbana at death... That would be so awesome, and there would be very quick and easy shortcuts for Parinibbana. Too bad it might not be the case.


See this only works within the confines of having the view of rebirth "either there is rebirth or it all ends in death". There is no point in clinging to either in my opinion, since Buddha clearly taught the abandoning of view points, that is not taking them up. In light of this the view "there is rebirth" is a thicket of views and a cause of much clinging and dukkha as is the view "there is no rebirth". They both are objects that people cling to deeply, thus causing dukkha


Also your view that killing one self to reach nibbana without remainder is a speculative view, something I think may come from your insistence that physical pain is dukkha (which ignores the 2nd noble truth that craving and clinging to OBJECTS is dukkha)

I apply pascal's wager. I'll do my best to learn, understand, develop wisdom and cut down fetters to stop rebirth as soon as conditions allow. If rebirth exists, it will be good. If there will be no continuation after this miserable life, then I won't mind :) .


Good for having a mind of wholesome states, not necessarily good for nibbana though


p.s. BTW you could apply pascal's wager to anything


metta :smile:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:23 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.


Pain is only physical if you remove the mental suffering associated with it. That will not make life suffering in itself. Did the Buddha lead a miserable life after enlightenment or did he dwell in peace born from relinquishment?


Pain is pain. While the Buddha was in peace inside, He did experience LOTS of pain. Ex in DN16.


Of course pain is pain. There is no need to mentally suffer due to physical pain. The Buddha never said to escape life and that existence is dukkha. He said "mental clinging" is dukkha. The cause of dukkha is thanha

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:39 pm

Sunrise wrote:The Buddha said "mental clinging" is dukkha. The cause of dukkha is thanha

Vinnana-upadana is one of the five-clung-to-aggregates that are dukkha. DO: "With tanha/craving as condition, there is upadana/clinging."

I guess, if you're not both saying the same thing :shrug: , then Alex says buddha still experienced dukkha :?: Sunrise says he didn't :?:

MN 53-- Buddha: "Piṭṭhi me āgilāyati; tamahaṃ āyamissāmī’’ti"/"My back is tired; I will stretch it."
No proof there either way.

Samyutta Nikaya: "Tena kho pana samayena Bhagavato pado sakalikaya
khato hoti. Bhusa sudam Bhagavato vedana vattanti sa-
ririka vedana dukkha tibba khara katuka asata amanapa."
I couldn't find a translation of this; it looks like buddha wounded his foot and felt things we might call bodily-dukkha--"tibba [tippa] khara katuka asata amanapa"

A History of Buddhist Philosophy by David Kalupahana, p.95: "The fact that the person who has attained freedom continues to experience through the same sense faculties he possessed before, and that he continues to have agreeable [manapa] and disagreeable [amanapa], sukha and dukkha experiences, is clearly admitted by the Buddha(29) [note 29 is missing on google books preview]."

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Sunrise » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:41 am

There is no need to quote suttas and the "History of Buddhist Philosophy" to state a simple fact that physical pain is pain. When the Buddha stuck his leg on a stone he would have felt pain. He had a nerves system.

Point is, there is a difference between phyiscal pain and the associated mental suffering. Suffering is associated with mental activities for the most part. The Buddha had said "although the body is old and sick there is no need for the mind to be sick". The buddha dwelt in peace which arose from relinquishment despite the fact that he experienced bodily pain. Practice is not centered on parinibbana but nibbana

I do not wish to discuss this any longer as I am repeating myself

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:16 am

Sunrise wrote:I do not wish to discuss this any longer as I am repeating myself.
Yes, almost as if someone needed convincing...yet no one disagreed with you! They just used the same English word with a different meaning. Thus my repeated :soap:keep the Pali :soap:
:alien: :popcorn:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Aloka » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:17 am

Sunrise wrote:There is no need to quote suttas and the "History of Buddhist Philosophy" to state a simple fact that physical pain is pain. When the Buddha stuck his leg on a stone he would have felt pain. He had a nerves system.

Point is, there is a difference between phyiscal pain and the associated mental suffering. Suffering is associated with mental activities for the most part. The Buddha had said "although the body is old and sick there is no need for the mind to be sick". The buddha dwelt in peace which arose from relinquishment despite the fact that he experienced bodily pain. Practice is not centered on parinibbana but nibbana

I do not wish to discuss this any longer as I am repeating myself

:anjali:



Agreed with you on the main points, Sunrise


_/\_

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby Fede » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:16 am

I'm sorry...Isn't this exactly the same discussion Octathlon and I were having....?

I guess the term "lost in Translation" might be appropriate here, but if everybody agrees that there is a difference between the perceived, felt and noted physical "ouch" pain, and the psychologically unnecessary 'pain' of emotionally dwelling on the wound - then what exactly is the issue? If we all know what we mean, isn't that enough?

Or am I just being extraordinarily naive, here?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Postby lojong1 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:21 pm

Fede wrote:I'm sorry...Isn't this exactly the same discussion Octathlon and I were having....?[...] if everybody agrees[...]then what exactly is the issue? If we all know what we mean, isn't that enough?
:goodpost:

"It is easier for trained specialists to change their terminology than to re-educate semantically the rest of the human race. I would suggest that terms 'matter', 'substance', 'space', and time' should be completely eliminated from science, because of their extremely wide-spread and vicious and so semantic implications, and that the terms 'events', 'space-time', 'material', 'plenum', 'fulness', 'spreads', 'times'., be used instead. These terms not only do not have the old structural and semantic implications, but, on the contrary, they convey the modern structural notions and involve new semantic reactions. The use of the old terms drags in, unconsciously and automatically, the old primitive and metaphysical structure and semantic reactions which are entirely contradicted by experience and modern science. I venture to suggest the such a change in terminology would do more to render the newer works intelligible than scores of volumes of explanations using the old terminology." -- p.234-235 Science and Sanity: an introduction to non-Aristotelian systems and general semantics, by Alfred Korzybski.
http://www.rodsmith.org.uk/alfred-korzybski/
http://esgs.free.fr/uk/art/sands.htm


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