How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha
No they aren't
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha
Why not?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
klqv
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by klqv »

Individual wrote:This is an old discussion but if I can add to it: There are no such thing as stream-enterers; that is, "stream-entering persons." This is only a conventional expression
Not ultimately a "person" no but am I right that there is "ultimately" a set of skandhas that enter the path of vision?
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

There is ultimately no person nor is there anything else that might even seem similar to "personhood." One could use various expressions, but it is still a conventional point of view. Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.

in the path of vision, one does not think even in terms of "this" or "that", because This vs. That is simply a more subtle version of Self vs. Other. This is self, that is other; this is self, those are others. Stream-enterers don't think this way. Overcoming self-view (sakkaya-ditthi) is an obstacle to stream-entry.

In this sense, you could say stream-entry is extremely rare, although ultimately there are no stream-enterers, because it is a process of non-becoming. If stream-entry were something one becomes, it would simply be another realm of samsara to pop in and out of.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

Individual wrote: Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.
That is nihilism. If there are no skandhas other than point of view, then there are no fingers, and so how did these messages get typed out?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by appicchato »

...people...I would suspect may have problems with reality.
Don't we all?...
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

appicchato wrote:
...people...I would suspect may have problems with reality.
Don't we all?...
Indeed. But as Ajahn Chah said "Don't make problems, then the world has none either."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
Cloud
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:11 pm
Contact:

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Cloud »

The task begins when one gains the experiential insight of Anatta (no-self), a wisdom of itself that destroys two more fetters. One can never again uphold a view or doctrine of self, and is aligned toward the selfless state that is at the end of the enlightenment process. There may be many more Sotapannas than we may know, as they have a tendency to work "behind the scenes" for the benefit of others rather than proclaim any achievement or attainment; for they realize there is no "self" that applies to either. To the degree that we uphold a doctrine of self, we remain unawakened. At least that's my understanding.

Namaste
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

kirk5a wrote:
Individual wrote: Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.
That is nihilism. If there are no skandhas other than point of view, then there are no fingers, and so how did these messages get typed out?
It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

Individual wrote: It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.
Then use it in answering my question, please.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

kirk5a wrote:
Individual wrote: It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.
Then use it in answering my question, please.
Don't make problems :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

Individual wrote: Don't make problems :)
Don't make views.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hmm.. not very productive.

Let me put it like this:

Anatta (the understanding that there is no self in any 'real' sense) is understood at a stage of insight/nana called 'sammassana nana' - the knowledge of comprehension'. However this is not the stage at which stream entry is finally reached. It is finally reached at the point of magga-phala citta- which is the crescent of the vipassana process.

This process (from the start) can be understood in the below framework:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope that is more helpful. :anjali:

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
divine
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:06 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

Hello guys! I found this thread by a google search, and thought I'd chip in. I became a stream enterer a couple of months ago, allthough at the time I didn't know the term "stream enterer" nor the part about 7 rebirths. I find this idea... well... pleasing...

As for the topic of this thread, I have absolutely no idea how common stream entry is. But I can say something about MY experience.

My stream entry experience is hard to put in words, when I try it all comes out so... un-worthy. It sounds pretentious and insane. I'd rather not convey, if that's all right. The experience could easily be labelled temporary madness or imagination running wild, if I had not been lucky enough to have in my toolbox the ana pana technique and equanimity from Goenka Vipassana. The ana pana and equanimity is from my perspective an essential part. So I guess lots of people can have the possibility of stream entry without going all the way with it, because of the overload. At one point I got the impression that it was written, you know, like destined. But it might be my soiled mind adding to the experience.

In addition I find it weird that I reached this experience with so little meditation, all I have is a little vipassana and some intermediate yoga. How can this be? I have done a number of wholesome deeds, though, and have been practising equanimity in the daily life - not so much but a little. That's my background in few words.

Despite having reached this level of enlightenment there is so many things I don't know, for instance I had to learn the term "stream enterer" when I was reading up on buddhism on wikipedia. One major question that is yet unanswered to me (please answer if you know) is how can we really be sure that the stream enterer is guaranteed a maximum of 7 rebirths? What is the source of this information? I am sceptic to these institutionalised religion-like stuff, but I recognised enough from my experience with what I read on wikipedia to be ready to read the original scriptures.

Also this experience showed me what to do with my life, but not in detail, for instance I would like to have some guidance to meditation. I know it seems silly, becoming a stream enterer and wanting to be held hands like a child. But this is really new, and I think it could be useful to have a guide or a manual for newly made stream enterers. Or maybe this is to be found in the scriptures? In that case, which?

I have not told anyone I know about this, as I think it will become a burden on our relationship, and I can see no benefit of doing it. As I improve as a person they will have more benefit than if I just tell them.

PS. "I" is like... you know :quote: ;)
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
Post Reply