How common is stream entry?

[manas]

Hi divine,

I will ask for your continued patience, because I also won't be answering your question exactly as you had wished. But this is relevant. Firstly: there are people here on Dhamma Wheel who have been either interested in, or practising, the Buddha-Dhamma (to the best of their knowledge, with honesty) for anything from one year, to maybe fifty years. Collectively there is alot of wisdom & experience here. So when someone just shows up out of the blue and announces an ariya attainment, it does grate a bit with some of us, maybe. In my own case, I first got interested in the Dhamma about 20 years ago, and my practice hasn't been steady over those years. I've had many ups and downs. But over the last few years, I've increased my efforts in trying to engage with all the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path much more, and lately I feel as though I am finally beginning to understand what the Dhamma is about, partially. Can you see how it might make someone like myself feel, having struggled with both comprehension of the Doctrine and it's practical implementation over such a long time, when someone turns up freely admitting little knowledge of it, yet claiming to already have attained that which I seek?

The other thing I wanted to say was that, I do think there are a few stream-enterers here, but I think that in most cases, the ones that truly are, will not disclose it. (There could be exceptions to this, however.)

with metta,

manas.

EDIT: and by the way, welcome to Dhamma Wheel I should add that I neither reject nor confirm your claim - I just can't make a judgement either way, other than if it is true, I'm very happy for you, really. But whatever the actual situation, I do encourage you to study the suttas, and put the teachings therein, into practice. One other advice would be to try to let go of identifying with the idea of having attained, for now; because my concern would be that if you have overestimated - it's very common to do this on the back of a wonderful meditative experience, I and many others know about this personally - that holding on to the belief that you have gone further than you actually have, might actually become a bit of an obstacle for you. So, I hope you can sense that I'm saying all this out of goodwill. The road can be tricky sometimes...

[reflection]

I belief the Buddha was enlightened, that's what matters most to me. It's not so important who are stream enterers today; we can never know for 100% sure about others anyway. Also, it is always wise to question our own attainments. It's hard to go against our imprints, so stream entry is not a common thing. Still, I belief stream entry is possible for everybody who sincerely practices the dhamma.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Divine,

Once again, so to be sure everyone gets the picture: I hope for this thread to be without discussion, a simple "I know of three living individuals" will suffice, even if you happen to be one of them. And let it be up to the author of the post to define the criteria, since there are some different ones, but feel free to share your definition. I truly believe such a thread will be of benefit, so don't clutter it.

A definition is this...

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at habits & practices."

If one accepted that definition at face value, I’d be prepared to declare a good many people as likely stream-entrants and beyond, as it seems little more than seeing that the Four Noble Truths are true, and that this renders a couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs irrelevant.

There are however other definitions, far removed from this. The diversity in measures makes a discussion of the subject difficult, confounding, and likely to give rise to unwholesome mindstates.

Metta,
Retro.

[divine]

@ manas: Thanks, and yes, I can see this. I have no clear answer at this point how such a thing can happen, and as I write in the Reductor sceptisism and discussion link in the first post - it will be of no gain to continue to try to convince anyone, I have said what is to be said at this point. But let me tell you: When you have been into this on and off for so long, surely you have some faith in the scriptures. So if my claim was right, you could just as well be just one lifetime behind, or even less. I urge you to continue, I am happy to convey that you are following the right path!

@ retrofuturist: yeah, when it has happened it is easy, they are nothing anymore. But I look forward with interest to see the other fetters go, maybe they will not in this lifetime, but my level of greed is very low and I am starting to become a better person already. So maybe. Let's see. It's hard to turn away from the path when such a thing has happened, because it is the only route. I am into dhamma with one foot now, and within a few years I hope to be all in.

PS. I am sorry I can't at this point use more terms from the scriptures, it's just that I haven't learnt them yet.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Divine,

This may be of interest too...

Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11303

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

A definition is this...

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at habits & practices."

If one accepted that definition at face value, I’d be prepared to declare a good many people as likely stream-entrants and beyond, as it seems little more than seeing that the Four Noble Truths are true...

Of course, this hinges on what exactly is implied by:

As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him...

Of course, "seeing that the Four Noble Truths are true", is a possible way of putting it, but presumably it would be "seeing" in the sense of having experienced for oneself the abandonment of the fetters (not just agreeing with the idea of the four noble truths). Which seems like quite a significant event...

...and that this renders a couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs irrelevant.

Which Brahmin practices would they be?


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

Which Brahmin practices would they be?

Sīlabbata-parāmāso

Of course, "seeing that the Four Noble Truths are true", is a possible way of putting it, but presumably it would be "seeing" in the sense of having experienced for oneself the abandonment of the fetters (not just agreeing with the idea of the four noble truths).

The suttas explain the dynamics involved...

Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

Metta,
Retro.

[Sokehi]

Found something in the lovely book by Paul Breiter about Ajahn Chah, "Venerable Father" that I offer to your recollection

On another occasion a farang had come back from travelling around Thailand and visiting various temples. He spoke of one monk who had confided to him that at one specific point he became a stream enterer, or sotapanna. Ajahn Chah said, Sotapanna is fish sauce. He looked at me and asked, do you want fish sauce? At the time I was a vegetarian, and to a vegetarian the smell of thai fish sauce is unappetizing, to say the least. So I answered, fish sauce stinks, not really sure of what we were talking about.
Long after this, I mentioned it to Ajahn Sumedho, and asked him what Ajahn Chah meant by that. Sumedho said that the idea of Stream Entry was just a concept to give people some flavor, like fish sauce.
Again, on his visit to the US in 1979, he related that once a Westerner had come to Wat Bah Pong and asked him if he was an Arahat. Ajahn Chah told him, your question is a question to be answered. I will answer it like this [he said]: I am like a tree in the forest. Birds come to the tree, they sit on its branches and eat its fruit. To the birds the fruit may be sweet or sour or whatever. But the tree doesn't know anything about it. The birds say sweet or they say sour - from the tree's point of view this is just the chattering of the birds.
On that same evening we also discussed the relative virtues of the Arhat and the Bodhisattva. He ended our discussion by saying "Don't be an Arhat. Don't be a Buddha. Don't be anything at all. Being something makes problems. So don't be anything, I don't have to be something..." He paused, and then said, "Sometimes when I think about it, I don't want to say anything."

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

If we are to progress on the path then we need to maintain our conduct.

Yes... whilst not identifying with it or relying on it.

Those who think morality is supreme say purity is by self-restraint;
Having taken upon themselves an observance they are dedicated to it.
“Let us train ourselves right here and now, and then there would be purity”—
Claiming to be adepts, they are brought up to further existence.

If he is fallen away from his morality and observances
He is agitated, having failed in his action.
He longs for and aspires to pure freedom from wrong
Like one who has lost his caravan and is far from home.

Metta,
Retro.

[khlawng]

Hi Ben,

Firstly, I would like you to know that it wasn’t my intention to call to question your contributions in making this forum available to all Buddhist worldwide. You guys provide a invaluable service and in that regard, I hope you do not think that the tone I used in my previous post undermines that contribution.

Having said that, we have fundamentally different views of what or who a stream entrant is, how he behaves and how common should stream entry be in the modern world.

I am going to jump forward to address the following quote

Those people who were close to the Buddha already had great paramis and excellent kamma which is why many attained after just listening to a discourse or in no short time. Becoming a sotapanna is not impossible, it can be done in this life but in this era it requires great effort and it cannot be attained outside the dispensation of the Buddha.

You are correct to assert that these people have great paramis and kamma to be born during the Buddha’s time. However, they all had the same faculty to listen and process words, like all of us have today. The Buddha’s role was merely to speak the right words to the right people at the right time to clear specific doubts. But they are, at its very fundamental level, words. Words that has been translated and recorded into Sutta that are generally available to all of us. The Sutta speak about many incidents of common folks awakening, but it does give a full account of how many walked away unawaken. I don’t believe there was a big distinction between a commoner who is ripe to be awaken and one that cannot be awaken even in the presence of the Buddha. Don’t forget that the Buddha himself, was a common person who found enlightenment through his own efforts. That is attractiveness of the Buddha’s teaching, that a common person can find enlightenment regardless of social status, intelligence and character. So in my humble opinion, there is no distinctive characteristics that tells a person who is ready to be awaken and one who is unawaken. Obviously, there are exception to this rule but by and large, the norm is that 2 sets would be undistinguishable.

Now, I gather we are all do not have a problem with the description that a sotapanna is one that has eradicated doubt, self-illusion and partaking in wrongful rituals and ceremonies, and the he has not began to weaken sense desire and hatred which will lead to the next stage of once-returner. By this definition, that he has not began to weaken hatred, how can he be one that has perfect sila then? I am not saying he is unable to keep the precepts or he doesn’t keep it. I am saying the degree in which he keeps it may not be perfect. I will go out on a limp to say that he may, on occasion still indulge in frivolous talks or harsh speech, but the intention to harm with such action would be lessen, much much less than before his attainment of stream entry. In that regard, he walks among us. You will not be able to tell him apart from another unless you have intimate knowledge of his previous habits or character (e.g. he suddenly appears to be unafraid of things he used to be afraid of) and even then, the assumption is that there is a big enough change to warrant notice. Here, I would like to say that I am not gender bias by using the word “he” to reference a stream entrant so as to exclude the womenfolk.

Next, if a stream entrant merely requires one to eradicate :

1) Self
2) Doubts in the Buddha’s teaching
3) Partaking in wrongful rituals and cermonies

Then, let us look at (3) first. I gather all of us don’t have a penchant for those voodoo stuff. By virtual of that, we are already 1/3 a sotapanna. Now, eradication of (1) leads to (2). Which means (2) is for our taking if we work hard enough to eradicate (1). By that assertion, we are 2/3 a sotapanna. Correct?

You raised an interesting line in your Sutta reference:

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

Moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom. Not perfection! With moderate success in meditation and wisdom, you qualify. So the only question is the definition of moderate. How much is moderate? In my opinion, it is just enough to see the destruction of the concept of self. Moving the mind between absorption is one way to see mind and matter. You don’t have to perfect the absorptions. Just a flirting glimpse of cause and effect, how your mind engages the sense bases and create thoughts. Again, no need to see the full chain of dependant origination. Being able to experience thoughts rising and falling and again, you do not need to see it perfectly. Just a glimpse. The key is to experience as many of these as possible and slowly, the perception of self breaks down. So is this really unattainable by common people? A lay Buddhist? The Average Joe? Hardly!

I don’t say any of this is easy as you still need to put in the effort to acquire wise friends and wisdom. But any wise friend worth his salt will tell you that this is attainable and that he will teach you how to attain it. An equally wise friend will also tell you that this is attainable but that he does not know how to teach it, that you need to find someone else to teach you. However, an unwise friend will tell you that this is not attainable because he has not attained it or he does not know how to teach you to attain it.

In conclusion, the title of this thread is “How common is stream entry?” I think the appropriate title should be “Why isn’t stream entry common!”

[tiltbillings]

Next, if a stream entrant merely requires one to eradicate :

1) Self
2) Doubts in the Buddha’s teaching
3) Partaking in wrongful rituals and cermonies

The problem is, however, that this can be mimicked.

[khlawng]

Next, if a stream entrant merely requires one to eradicate :

1) Self
2) Doubts in the Buddha’s teaching
3) Partaking in wrongful rituals and cermonies

The problem is, however, that this can be mimicked.

Sorry tilt but can you expand on this statement?

[tiltbillings]

Next, if a stream entrant merely requires one to eradicate :

1) Self
2) Doubts in the Buddha’s teaching
3) Partaking in wrongful rituals and cermonies

The problem is, however, that this can be mimicked.

Sorry tilt but can you expand on this statement?

Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?

[Ben]

Hi khlawng

Thank you for your very detailed reply. I just want to acknowledge your post as, yet again, I do not have time to write a substantial reply at the moment. I also wish to say that I do respect your contention and argument but its a point of view that I do not share with you. If I get time, I'll try and write more.
with metta,

Ben

[reflection]

Also,

We have to keep on guard. Sometimes when the mind is luminous and bright we think we see it all totally clearly. Maybe we will think, "Hey, now I am a sotapanna! I've been watching over the mind and I'm free of sensual craving and there are only minimal thoughts arising."

There are some centres where the students go to ask about their meditation and the teacher will approve, saying, "The mind in this state has reached the level of sakadagami." There are a lot of these places.

There was once a layman who was practicing in the forest tradition. When he meditated he couldn't get any peace at all. So he went and visited another teacher who taught, instructed and guided him in the practice. At first this man couldn't even sit still for one hour, but when he went and sat with this other teacher he could sit six or seven hours, maybe even all night.

After that, this layman was pleased with the results and went to consult this teacher who declared that the layman had seen the Dhamma. From then on he thought he was an ariya-puggala. He couldn't restrain himself from boasting about it. Wherever he went he would loudly broadcast to others that he knew and saw, that he had the Dhamma firmly in his heart. But it was merely on the level of sanna (memory).

Later this man, with the help of one of Luang Pu Mun's disciples, was able to correct this view and backed off from his position. With a view that has become firmly ingrained, it's hard to straighten out. It's hard, but it's not beyond the capacity of some teachers.

This is the very reason Luang Pu Chah would never answer any questions like this and say, "This monk is at this level, this monk is at that level." He would never say what level of attainment someone had achieved. He would always teach about those things with wisdom. He would say that it's paccattam - one knows and experiences for oneself.

Sometimes Luang Pu Chah would teach using similes. Some monks would say, "This monk is an arahant, he's this and that, he has no sexual craving and he has no more wanting or liking for anything." Then they would go and ask Luang Pu Chah. He would say, "If a frog stays down in a hole for many months, does that make it an arahant? Is it really an arahant now?" That's how he would answer, enabling us to contemplate and understand the matter clearly.

It's wrong to jump to conclusions when special experiences arise from the practice and we label and interpret them as an attainment of one level or another. This is the reason a lot of delusion arises. In some monasteries there are many "sotapannas" and "sakadagamis," but as time passes they all seem to disappear. We see this in some places.

But in our Wat Nong Pah Pong lineage, those who have practiced well don't talk about levels of achievement, because those that have achieved know for themselves. They understand the various ways and methods of practice. Luang Pu Chah emphasised this a lot."

from: http://www.watmarpjan.org/en/pdf/en-SOTA-LOW.pdf

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

Which Brahmin practices would they be?

Sīlabbata-parāmāso

Oh, attachment to rite and rituals? I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.

Of course, "seeing that the Four Noble Truths are true", is a possible way of putting it, but presumably it would be "seeing" in the sense of having experienced for oneself the abandonment of the fetters (not just agreeing with the idea of the four noble truths).

The suttas explain the dynamics involved...

Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

Well, sure: "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" and "three fetters are abandoned".

That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.


Mike

[divine]

Greetings,

If we are to progress on the path then we need to maintain our conduct.

Yes... whilst not identifying with it or relying on it.

Those who think morality is supreme say purity is by self-restraint;
Having taken upon themselves an observance they are dedicated to it.
“Let us train ourselves right here and now, and then there would be purity”—
Claiming to be adepts, they are brought up to further existence.

If he is fallen away from his morality and observances
He is agitated, having failed in his action.
He longs for and aspires to pure freedom from wrong
Like one who has lost his caravan and is far from home.

Metta,
Retro.

This quote is awesome! This I will have as an inspiration! But now I am going to do what I had promised myself to abstain from, and that is to say something about my insight. I did not want this, as it will be very touchy to come with claims + a view, but please review it with an objective mind:

This quote you gave I agree with, but we have to see through the ignorance in the world and that is that the consumer society is not in line with the true dhamma. This is because it is not sustainable. This has now come to such an extreme level, that one could say we have forgotten the true dhamma. In this day and age with economical and political turmoil the discussions are about how to get economic growth to get out of the mess, when the nature is already struggling. Species are going extinct all the time and land grabbing is upon us. It is greed and violence in abundance. Dhamma will survive, but if nothing is beeing done nature as we know it will not. But fear not. The solution is right in front of us, around us, and within us. The true dhamma is available for us to use to fight this evil.

I can further point to some steps:

1. Reduce
2. Reuse
3. Recycle
4. Grow some of your own food
5. Create habitat for the true dhamma

And while doing all this, we should follow the path.

Metta

[tiltbillings]

And while doing all this, we should follow the path.

The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.

[Viscid]

And while doing all this, we should follow the path.

The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.

Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..

[khlawng]

And while doing all this, we should follow the path.

The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.

Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it people of a single religion..

You need not be a Buddhist. Hence the term paccebuddha.

All other religion that speaks of a soul or a unviversal maker is disqualified at this point. But eventually, all would attain. How many lifetime and the length of time though is uncertain.