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How common is stream entry? - Page 16 - Dhamma Wheel

How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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kirk5a
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:17 am

I think the Dhamma-follower and faith-follower definitions are encouraging.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

mogg
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:40 am


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Dan74
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:45 am

I feel that it is counter-productive and misleading to either say "difficult and rare" or "easy and common".

As far as I can make out, insight is a matter of deep commitment and sharpening the attention. Most folks here no doubt know the prerequisites for this and it is not something superhuman. Sure enough some are hampered by mental illness or a particularly difficult background, demanding circumstances and other inauspicious circumstances for practice. Even these can be overcome and turned around to actually serve practice.

For most of us (and I include myself in this) the greatest obstacle seems to be the commitment. How much do we want it? How seriously committed we are? How sincere is our commitment? None if this is static and fixed and can develop and grow over time, if we apply some effort and pay good attention.

Or so it seems...
_/|\_

mogg
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:50 am


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Dan74
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:54 am

Perhaps believing it is to be extremely difficult and most rare is an "obfuscation" that serves to make it so difficult and rare?

Ajahn Brahm said once something to the effect of "The door out of samsara is right here. We just don't want to see it."

Of course it is not as easy as brainwashing ourselves into thinking it's easy. But setting us the impossible goal many thousands of miles ahead is not going to be productive either...

"Empirical fact" - how so?
_/|\_

mogg
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:09 am


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Dan74
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:40 am

_/|\_

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retrofuturist
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:48 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

mogg
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:58 am

Last edited by mogg on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan74
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:00 am

_/|\_

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Dan74
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:08 am

Mogg, thanks. I don't think I am wedded to a position on this. In fact I've been trying to argue against taking a position, that taking a position is counter-productive. Perhaps you can take your own advice and read posts more carefully.

The passage you quoted again is no evidence that stream-entry is rare and difficult, I am sorry. The Dhamma being deep, hard to see and hard to realize is very true but I don't think it necessarily follows that those who sincerely strive overwhelmingly fail to do what is difficult. Especially if one does not delight in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoys attachment.

Reports of a few monks is hardly evidence unless they were major teachers who have instructed many monks and would know of their attainments. If they were, I will accept this as some evidence that it is rare.

But again, I am not of the opinion that stream-entry is easy to realize, just that it is not useful to posit that it is difficult. And that it may in fact make it more difficult that it needs to be.
Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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PadmaPhala
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:08 am


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PadmaPhala
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:36 am


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PadmaPhala
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:04 am


mogg
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:13 am

Last edited by mogg on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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manas
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby manas » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:22 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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retrofuturist
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:17 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:58 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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equilibrium
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby equilibrium » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:44 pm


Feathers
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Feathers » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:13 pm

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