Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

IanAnd wrote: Yes, I think doubt is definitely one of the factors a sotapanna has to overcome along with the acknowledgment about the delusion of selfhood. Having these two in place helps to bring about a rational ending to clinging to rituals (the adherence to rules and observances) as this was, after all, Gotama's response to the emptiness of Brahminism's ritualistic practice of his day as it would have, in his opinion, little effect on the empirical practice that he was endeavoring to teach and make known. When a person understands all these factors and has made a personal inner commitment to the practice, not just because it "sounds nice," but because it makes sense and has made an indelible impression on his mind, then I think we give him (or her) a break and let him acknowledge to himself, at least, this achievement. No need to make a big deal about this by announcing it all over the place. The people who know this person will see it reflected in the way he lives his life

Despite all the varieties of definitions of sotapanna floating around in this and other threads, it seems possible that the Buddha (as opposed to the institutions that grew up around his teachings after his parinibbana and which began to categorize and doctrine-ize them) may have had a more simplified view of what reaching stream entry was about. I don't have any particular sutta passages in mind, just an overall abiding impression from the discourses that he wasn't as much of a stickler about this as some in the present day would have it.

Zom wrote:

Despite all the varieties of definitions of sotapanna floating around in this and other threads, it seems possible that the Buddha (as opposed to the institutions that grew up around his teachings after his parinibbana and which began to categorize and doctrine-ize them) may have had a more simplified view of what reaching stream entry was about. I don't have any particular sutta passages in mind, just an overall abiding impression from the discourses that he wasn't as much of a stickler about this as some in the present day would have it.

Here is a sutta passage:

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death."

(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

PS, by the way, no sutta says about "sotapanna's glimpse of nibbana".

Zom wrote:Actually there may be a flash when entering a stream of Dhamma. But this is not some mystic experience, but, indeed, perhaps this is just right understaning, like: "aaah, that is how it is!". This may happen listening to someone's sermon, or reading a book or an article. It is said that 2 conditions are necessary: - words of another, - appropriate attention (by the way, for wrong view to arise, also 2 needed - words of another and not-appropriate attention (ayoniso manasikara)).

Yesterday I also found interestin sutta that proves that no jhana needed to gain stream-entry:

Saradasutta - Autumn

Bhikkhus, in Autumn when there is a clear sky, without a single cloud and the sun rising high up in the sky destroys all the darkness and burns and scorches every thing. In the same manner to the noble disciple there arises the eye of the Teaching and together with that arising, three bonds get dispelled, the view of a self, doubts and taking virtues as the ultimate end of the holy life. After that the leading is by covetousness and hatred. He secluding the mind from sensual and demeritorious thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. If the noble disciple dies at that time he has no bonds on account of which he is to be born in this world .
(pali original - http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipita ... /2.5/2.5.3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

That means, at first you enter the stream, and then only 2 major defilements remain - greed and aversion. Then, if you enter 1 jhana (as this sutta says), you will gain path to non-returning. So if you die, possessing this 1st jhana, you will be anagami.

Ben wrote:

IanAnd wrote: Yes, I think doubt is definitely one of the factors a sotapanna has to overcome along with the acknowledgment about the delusion of selfhood. Having these two in place helps to bring about a rational ending to clinging to rituals (the adherence to rules and observances) as this was, after all, Gotama's response to the emptiness of Brahminism's ritualistic practice of his day as it would have, in his opinion, little effect on the empirical practice that he was endeavoring to teach and make known. When a person understands all these factors and has made a personal inner commitment to the practice, not just because it "sounds nice," but because it makes sense and has made an indelible impression on his mind, then I think we give him (or her) a break and let him acknowledge to himself, at least, this achievement. No need to make a big deal about this by announcing it all over the place. The people who know this person will see it reflected in the way he lives his life

How about having glimpsed nibbana and living a life of pure sila?

Ben wrote: What you seem to be advocating above looks to me like the definition of the cula-sotapanna.

IanAnd wrote:I find the intitutionalized labels more trouble dealing with than they are worth.)

tiltbillings wrote:

IanAnd wrote:I find the intitutionalized labels more trouble dealing with than they are worth.)

And you mean by this what?

IanAnd wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

IanAnd wrote:I find the intitutionalized labels more trouble dealing with than they are worth.)

And you mean by this what?

Do you really want to ask that question? And if so, who really cares what is meant.

tiltbillings wrote:

IanAnd wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:And you mean by this what?

Do you really want to ask that question? And if so, who really cares what is meant.

Obviously, I do; otherwise, I would not have asked. You made the statement and what is meant by it is not at all clear.

intitutionalized labels Are you talking about the suttas, the commentaries, or something else all together? Damdifino, so I ask.

IanAnd wrote: Okay. Labels created by religious institutions such as Theravada, Mahayana, Zen, Tibetan Vajrayana et al.

The salient feature that is characteristic of enlightenment that’s independent of the tradition, whether it’s Christian, Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu, Sikh, Native, Atheist, etc.—the common denominator is that “shift in perception of I-amness”. However, depending on a person’s background, and also how a person interprets the experience, the language that’s used to describe what is realized may be very different.

m0rl0ck wrote:the common denominator is that “shift in perception of I-amness”

However, depending on a person’s background, and also how a person interprets the experience, the language that’s used to describe what is realized may be very different.

One bhavana center leader cited a canonical story that during the Buddha’s time there were seven crores (seventy million) of stream-enterers in Savatthi and five crores of them were laymen.
From: The Buddhist Revival in Sri Lanka by George D. Bond