About nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: About nibbana

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:10 pm

Zom wrote:Imagine a basket filled with sand. And imagine that you have a feeling that there is some.. lets say.. iron ball inside this sand in the basket. So you can either carefully stir up all this sand and see for yourself that there is no iron ball inside, or you can start scooping out all this sand from the basket. When all sand will be taken out, you will also see that there is no iron ball inside. Two methods, result is the same.


:thumbsup:

That's a good metaphor and I agree with it. Though I think that the result isn't necessarily guaranteed.
Like for example, the person doesn't know what the iron ball looks like. So, if he doesn't find one, it's still possible that he would convince himself that it must be the same size as the grains of sand, or even that the grains are the iron balls themselves, or at least they have the inner nature. Or he even could say that he managed to crumble it up into the sand, so it's not there anymore. That is why it's important we start with the Right View.
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Re: About nibbana

Postby Zom » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:33 pm

Yes, so that is, and perhaps that is why ancient ascetics who reached 8th jhana couldn't reach nibbana, they still had this "self view".
But that one who has more wisdom, he can let go completely and thus reach nibbana. In one sutta Buddha says that the closest to Dhamma "priests and contemplators" are those who reached themselves and teach others 8th jhana. So perhpas it is very easy for them to drop their self-view and enter nibbana - as happened with Uruvella Kassapa and his numerous students, who immidiately became arahants after hearing Fire Sermon..
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:29 pm

Zom wrote:
This sounds like it was based on a wrong view of anatta. If there was nothing that we should view as a "self," then there would be no "self" for us to end when we do the nirodha samapatti... right? So, why would this (necessarily) give someone a more direct realization about anatta?


Because nirodha samapatti is direct realization of maximum possible cessation, that is nibbana. There is nothing "further" than this cessation. Nibbana is the end. In nibbana there can't be anything, because it is the cessation of everything. Seeing this, you see total anatta.
Nirodha Samapatti is something a jhana master who is arahant can attain, but it is NOT nibbana, nor is it necessary for nibbana. Nibbana is not the cessation of everything.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:58 pm

rowyourboat wrote:There's no jhana
for one with no discernment,
no
discernment
for one with no jhana.
But one with both jhana
&
discernment:
he's on the verge
of Unbinding. (ie- not yet there, almost there)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-372


Dear friends,

I don't know what is the meaning discernment by Ven. Thanissaro. If he meant discernment is insight, then how could he explain the achievement Alara Kalama (7th Jhana) and Uddaka Ramaputta (8th Jhana)? How about Samana from Brahmanism? Did they have discernment? If he meant discernment is insight, he truly bias.

I think "There's no jhana for one with no discernment" as he claims is incorrect. There are Jhana achievements without insight (pure Samatha).

Mettacittena,
fabian
Last edited by chandrafabian on Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:04 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Zom wrote:
This sounds like it was based on a wrong view of anatta. If there was nothing that we should view as a "self," then there would be no "self" for us to end when we do the nirodha samapatti... right? So, why would this (necessarily) give someone a more direct realization about anatta?


Because nirodha samapatti is direct realization of maximum possible cessation, that is nibbana. There is nothing "further" than this cessation. Nibbana is the end. In nibbana there can't be anything, because it is the cessation of everything. Seeing this, you see total anatta.
Nirodha Samapatti is something a jhana master who is arahant can attain, but it is NOT nibbana, nor is it necessary for nibbana. Nibbana is not the cessation of everything.


Dear Tilt, Nirodha Samapatti is an experience of Nibbana most closely resemblance to Anupadisesa Nibbana (Nibbana without remainder). Only Arahat or Anagami who has achieved 8th Jhana can experience Nirodha Samapatti.

:anjali:
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Re: About nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:33 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana


i believe when he is describing the blackout thing he is criticizing the Mahasi method


Dear Jc, many people have the wrong impression Nibbana experience by Mahasi meditators are total blackout. That is not entirely true, I know two persons who claims they experience light, it is even mention how the lights arises, and it is in accordance with Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta: there arose vision, knowledge, insight, wisdom and light.

Bhante Vimalaramsi is practicing Mahasi method before, and somehow he feels the method is not suitable for him, and then he become strong criticize of Mahasi method.
Many peoples have wrong impression about Mahasi method, mostly because of wrong presumptions.
We can not make progress if we practice a certain meditation method with wrong presumptions, especially ill presumptions
Visuddhi magga mention about a meditator should let go of presumptions and follow meditation teacher instructions wholeheartedly to make progress.

Mettacittena,
fabian
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Re: About nibbana

Postby Zom » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:45 pm

but it is NOT nibbana, nor is it necessary for nibbana. Nibbana is not the cessation of everything.


Actually it is a cessation of everything. And what is everything (All)? As suttas say - all is: eye and forms, ear and sounds..... .. mind and mind objects. And this all this ceases in nibbana. In nirodha samapatti all these things cease also.
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Re: About nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:35 pm

OK, here's the quote that Sunrise mentioned, from Ajahn Brahm, Happiness Through Meditation (AKA Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond).
The Jhanas III: Bliss Upon Bliss
Page 171
Ajahn Brahm wrote:The mind-base of neither perception nor nonperception.
Within the perception of nothingless lies the perception of not even nothing! If the mind is subtle enough to see this feature, then the perception of nothingness disappears and is replaced by the perception of neither perception nor nonperception. All that one can say about this foruth immaterial attainment is that it is, in fact, a perception (AN IX, 42). In the simile of the thousand-petalled lotus, this state is represented by the last row of petals, still closed, with all the other petals fully open. This last row of petals is almost not like petals at all, being the most subtle and sublime, for it clasps within its gossamer fabric the famous "jewel in the heart of the lotus", nibbana.

Nibbana, the Cessation of all Perception
Within the perception of neither perception nor nonperception lies the end of all perception, the cessation of all that is felt or perceived, nibbana. If the mind attends to this, the mind stops. When the mind starts again, one gains the attainment of arahant or anagami. These are the only possibilities.

Gradual Cessation
Another way of viewing the jhanas and the four immaterial attainments is by placing them in the sequence of gradual cessation. The process that leads into the first jhana is the cessation of the world of the five senses together with the body and all doing. the path from the first to the fourth jhana is the cessation of that part of the mind that recognises pleasure and displeasure. The road from the fourth jhana to the fourth immaterial attainment is the cessation, almost, of the remaining activity of a mind called "knowing". And the last step is the cessation of the last vestige of knowing. Through jhanas and the immaterial attainments, first one lets go of the body and the world of the five senses. Then one lets go of the doer. Then one lets go of pleasure and displeasure. then one lets go of space and consciousness. Then one lets go of all knowing. When one lets go of an object, the object disappears, ceases. If it remains, one has not let go. Through letting go of all that can be known, the knower ceases. This is the cessation of everything, including the mind. This is the place where consciousness no longer manifests, where earth, water, fire and ari find no footing. Where name-and-form are wholly destroyed (DN II,85). Emptiness. Cessation. Nibbana, the jewel in the heart of the lotus.


mikenz66 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sunrise, could you give us a page reference or a short quote, since I can't find what you are referring to in Ajahn Brahm's book...

Mike


Hey Mike. I don't have the book with me right now as I gave it to a friend. But it is there when he is describing Nibbana after describing in detail all the formless jhanas one after the other. I looked at the table of contents in the PDF and if I am not mistaken it should be in chapter "Onward to Full Enlightenment". It comes right after the description of the jhana "neither perception nor non-perception"

OK, I"ll take a look at it tonight. That narrows it down a bit... :reading:

Mike
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:48 pm

Zom wrote:
but it is NOT nibbana, nor is it necessary for nibbana. Nibbana is not the cessation of everything.


Actually it is a cessation of everything. And what is everything (All)? As suttas say - all is: eye and forms, ear and sounds..... .. mind and mind objects. And this all this ceases in nibbana. In nirodha samapatti all these things cease also.
Actually, no it is not the cessation of everything. You claim this, but you have yet to support your claim with a careful textual analysis. Nibbana is not nirodha samapatti, a jhana state that is not nesssary for the attainment of nibbana.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby Kenshou » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:32 pm

Brings up a good point, nirodha-samapatti is in the discourses called sanna-vedayita-nirodha, right? Cessation of apperception and feeling. The prerequisite for nirodha is the fourth aruppa, so from neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the last residue of perception is abandoned, along with feeling.

Is this really a complete stop, as is sometimes said? I dunno.
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:34 pm

Kenshou wrote:Brings up a good point, nirodha-samapatti is in the discourses called sanna-vedayita-nirodha, right? Cessation of apperception and feeling. The prerequisite for nirodha is the fourth aruppa, so from neither-perception-nor-non-perception, the last residue of perception is abandoned, along with feeling.

Is this really a complete stop, as is sometimes said? I dunno.
But, again, nirodha-samapatti is not nibbana, nor is nirodha-samapatti necessary for nibbana. Also, if it were a complete stop of everything, then how do you get started up again?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby Zom » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:49 am

Nibbana is not nirodha samapatti, a jhana state that is not nesssary for the attainment of nibbana.


In several posts above I already proved by suttas why these states are synonyms - "cessation" (nirodha) or "nibbana" (fading, literally). Plus I can add a bit more to all those arguments. For example, in Pancakanga sutta Buddha equates nirodha-samapatti with the highest possible happiness. Nibbana, as we know from other suttas, is also said to be the highest happiness. Synonyms. In many suttas Buddha and disciples speak about nibbana in such synonyms: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; nibbana". Here we see nirodha and nibbana as synonyms. Some say that "nirodha" here refers not to nirodha-samapatti, but to nirodha of craving (so on). But in Anguttara there an explanation of this word:

"Friend, it is said, cesstion, for what is it said, cessation, by The Blessed One?"
Here, friend, the bhikkhu secluding the mind from sensual desires ... re ... abides in the first higher state of the mind. Friend, mastering this is cessation, said The Blessed One. Again, friend, the bhikkhu overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts ... re ... abides in the second higher state of the mind ... third higher state of the mind, ... fourth higher state of the mind Friend, mastering this is cessation, said The Blessed One. Again, friend, the bhikkhu overcoming all perceptions of matter and all perceptions of anger, not attending to various perceptions, with space is boundless abides in the sphere of space. Friend, mastering this is cessation, said The Blessed One ... re ... Again, friend, the bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of neither perceptions nor non-perceptions abides in the cessation of perceptions and feelings (nirodha-samapatti). Friend, mastering, this is cessation, said The Blessed One."


(http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html)

And about jhanas needed for enlightenment - that is another question, but nowhere in the suttas I could find a direct prove that jhanas are not necessary. At least 1st jhana is needed. And many suttas point on that jhana is crucial in nibbana attainment. For example:

Ananda, this is the path and method, to overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world. It is not possible that one could, knowing and seeing overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world without coming to this path and method. It is like one come to a huge standing tree with heartwood, would cut the heartwood without removing the bark and sapwood. That is not possible, in the same manner, it is not possible that one could know, see and overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world, without coming to this path and method.

Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction.


(MN 64 - http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html)
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:27 am

Zom wrote:
Nibbana is not nirodha samapatti, a jhana state that is not nesssary for the attainment of nibbana.


In several posts above I already proved by suttas why these states are synonyms - "cessation" (nirodha) or "nibbana" (fading, literally). . . .
None of this points to nibbana being the cessation of everything and none of this supports a claim that nirodha-samapatti is nibbana.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:36 am

chandrafabian wrote:
Dear Tilt, Nirodha Samapatti is an experience of Nibbana most closely resemblance to Anupadisesa Nibbana (Nibbana without remainder).
Says who? The only way that could be vefied is by an arahant who died and then came back to tell us about it.
Only Arahat or Anagami who has achieved 8th Jhana can experience Nirodha Samapatti.
Sure, but it is not necessary for full awakening.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: About nibbana

Postby Zom » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:36 am

None of this points to nibbana being the cessation of everything


Here:
1. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
2. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

none of this supports a claim that nirodha-samapatti is nibbana.


I guess I shouldn't post everything twice -)
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:43 am

Zom wrote:
None of this points to nibbana being the cessation of everything


Here:
1. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
2. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
But that is not the cessation, ending, of everything. It is simply the non-attachment to the all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: About nibbana

Postby Zom » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:57 am

But that is not the cessation, ending, of everything. It is simply the non-attachment to the all.


Heh... how about this one:

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

The body disintegrated,
perception ceased,
pain & rapture were entirely consumed,
fabrications were stilled:
consciousness has come to its end.


(Udana 8.9 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:47 am

Zom wrote:
But that is not the cessation, ending, of everything. It is simply the non-attachment to the all.


Heh... how about this one:

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

The body disintegrated,
perception ceased,
pain & rapture were entirely consumed,
fabrications were stilled:
consciousness has come to its end.


(Udana 8.9 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)
That is, of course, not the full story of "total Unbinding": There is the case where a monk's conceit 'I am' is abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered.

"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone
(tathagata) is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone (tathagata) is untraceable even in the here & now.
– MN I 139

Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118

One cannot characterize the living arahant solely in terms of the arahant who has come to "total Unbinding." If in an arahant there was complete cessation of everything she could not function. So, you need to clarify your position here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: About nibbana

Postby Nyana » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:30 am

Zom wrote:In many suttas Buddha and disciples speak about nibbana in such synonyms: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; nibbana". Here we see nirodha and nibbana as synonyms. Some say that "nirodha" here refers not to nirodha-samapatti, but to nirodha of craving (so on).

Hi Zom & all,

All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).

Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).

In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: About nibbana

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:27 pm

Mahasi Sayadaw has trained some of the world's best meditators- his knowledge of the commentaries and suttas are superlative. For all the armchair meditators and commentators to compare themselves with this level of understanding is not meaningful. See his comments on the 'progress of insight' below:


VII. Purification by Knowledge and Vision

15. Path Knowledge
It is followed immediately by knowledge that abides in that same Nibbana, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "path knowledge."[43] It is also called "purification by knowledge and vision."

16. Fruition Knowledge
That again is immediately followed by knowledge that belongs to the final stage and continues in the course of its predecessor. It abides in that same Nibbana, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "fruition knowledge."

17. Knowledge of Reviewing
The duration of that threefold knowledge of maturity, path, and fruition is, however, not long. It is very short, and lasts for just an instant, like the duration of a single thought of noticing. Subsequently there arises "knowledge of reviewing." Through that knowledge of reviewing the meditator discerns that the insight leading to emergence came along with the very rapid function of noticing, and that immediately after the last phase of noticing, the path consciousness entered into the cessation (of formations). This is "knowledge reviewing the path."

He also discerns that the consciousness abided in that same state of cessation during the intervening period between the path and reviewing. This is "knowledge reviewing fruition."

He further discerns that the object just experienced is void of all formations. This is "knowledge reviewing Nibbana."

In this connection it is said in the Path of Purification: " 'By that path, indeed, I have come'; thus he reviews the path. 'That blessing was obtained'; thus he reviews the fruition. 'That state has been penetrated as an object by me';[44] thus he reviews the Deathless, Nibbana" (Visuddhimagga, xxii, 20).

Some meditators, but not all, have "reviewing of defilements."[45]

After having reviewed in this way, the meditator still continues the practice of noticing bodily and mental processes as they become evident. But while he is thus engaged in noticing, the bodily and mental processes appear to him quite coarse, not subtle as before at the time of the knowledge of equanimity about formations. Why is this so? This is so because the knowledge present now has the nature of the knowledge of arising and passing away. For when the noble disciples (namely, stream-winners, etc.) resume the practice of insight (by noticing), the knowledge of arising and passing away usually arises at the beginning. This is the usual course of order in this respect.

However, when some meditators emerge from the attainment of path and fruition, great faith, happiness, rapture, and tranquillity, produced by virtue of the attainment, arise flooding the whole body. Owing to that, they are unable to carry out the practice of noticing anything apparent at that time. Even if they make double effort and attempt to proceed with the practice of insight, they fail to discern the phenomena clearly and separately, at the moment of their occurrence. They continue to experience only rapture, tranquillity, and happiness, which occur with great force. This state of mind, which is extraordinarily serene through the strong faith prevailing, lasts for one hour, two hours, or more, without break. Because of this, meditators feel as if they were in some such place as a wide open space suffused with radiance and most delightful. The rapture and happiness, of a serene character, that then arise are praised by meditators thus: "Surely, I have never before felt and experienced such happiness!" After two or three hours have passed, that faith, happiness, rapture, and tranquillity will fade. The meditators can once again proceed with noticing the bodily and mental processes as they occur, distinguishing them separately, and they will be able to discern them clearly. But at that time, too, first the knowledge of arising and passing away will appear.

18. Attainment of Fruition
While he is thus engaged in noticing, his insight knowledge will gradually grow, and soon will again reach the stage of equanimity about formations. If his power of concentration is still short of perfection, only the equanimity about formations will go on repeating itself. But if his concentration has reached perfection, then, in the case of one who does the insight practice of noticing with a view of attaining only to the first path and fruition, the fruition consciousness of the first path alone reaches cessation of formations by way of the attainment of fruition.[46] This occurs in precisely the same way as the path and fruition consciousness that occurred earlier in the consciousness-sequence belonging to the initial attainment of the first path. The only difference here is the capacity of the fruition attainment to last long.

One should also set one's mind resolutely upon the further tasks: to be able to repeat the achievement of fruition attainment, to achieve it rapidly, and, at the time of achievement, to abide in it a long time, say for six, ten, fifteen or thirty minutes, or for an hour or more.

In one who applies himself to achieving the attainment of fruition, knowledge of arising and passing away will arise at the beginning. Advancing from there in the due sequence, soon the knowledge of equanimity about formations is reached. But when skill in the practice has been acquired, the knowledge of equanimity about formations will arise quickly even after four or five acts of noticing. If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#ch7.18

Sutta should be understood in the light of practice. Practice should be understood in the light of sutta. Otherwise having only sutamaya panna is incomplete. Bhavanamaya panna is essential.

with metta

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