About nibbana

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Re: About nibbana

Postby Nyana » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:48 am

rowyourboat wrote:Mahasi Sayadaw has trained some of the world's best meditators- his knowledge of the commentaries and suttas are superlative.

Hi RYB,

Are you implying that everyone who disagrees with Mahāsi Sayādaw is wrong? It runs counter to the intent of the dhamma for anyone who isn’t fully awakened to maintain definite conclusions that “Only this is true; anything else is worthless” (MN 95, M ii 164).

rowyourboat wrote:For all the armchair meditators and commentators to compare themselves with this level of understanding is not meaningful.

There are numerous dedicated meditators and commentators who have devoted their life to the dhammavinaya and who disagree with Mahāsi Sayādaw.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: About nibbana

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:28 am

Hi Geoff,
Ñāṇa wrote:There are numerous dedicated meditators and commentators who have devoted their life to the dhammavinaya and who disagree with Mahāsi Sayādaw.

Sure. And numerous who agree.

Same goes for most (all?) modern commentators...

As you say:
Ñāṇa wrote:It runs counter to the intent of the dhamma for anyone who isn’t fully awakened to maintain definite conclusions that “Only this is true; anything else is worthless” (MN 95, M ii 164).

Any statements from modern commentators, here or elsewhere, to that effect I dismiss as overenthusiasm...

Mike
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:57 am

Rather than getting sidetracked about commentators, what is the argument here?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby Nyana » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:01 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Sure. And numerous who agree.

Hi Mike,

Which is why argumentum ad numerum isn't helpful. Nor is (tacitly or explicitly) dismissing everyone who doesn't agree with one as "armchair meditators and commentators."

mikenz66 wrote:Any statements from modern commentators, here or elsewhere, to that effect I dismiss as overenthusiasm...

Indeed.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: About nibbana

Postby 5heaps » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:17 am

Zom wrote:I said that we have a feeling that this self do exist. Like you know, you see a rope in darkness and you are sure that this is a snake.
Same here. So what you do? You turn on light and see - ah... no snake here at all. So same with nama-rupa. We have a feeling (not an intellectual understanding) that there is a self "in" this mind-body. This is just like a rope in darkness. So to see the truth, you either use jhana and vipassana to look through and examine carefully all this namarupa - or - you can reach nirodha, where all layers of what is namarupa disappear. In both cases this feeling of self will perish. Just two different methods with the same result to see the emptiness.

Imagine a basket filled with sand. And imagine that you have a feeling that there is some.. lets say.. iron ball inside this sand in the basket. So you can either carefully stir up all this sand and see for yourself that there is no iron ball inside, or you can start scooping out all this sand from the basket. When all sand will be taken out, you will also see that there is no iron ball inside. Two methods, result is the same.

youre either very very wrong or your wording is too imprecise.

not finding the iron balls and being amazed by this negation is a statement about the unchanging, independent, monolithic entity (aka SELF).

if it was about the person then you would be annihilating the person, and that would be nihilism.

after all, persons must exist in order to think of them in a mistaken way (ie. self), and to grasp to their parts and objects of desire/aversion in mistaken ways.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:20 am

5heaps wrote:youre either very very wrong or your wording is too imprecise.
It seems maybe your wording is a bit impercise:
after all, persons must exist in order to think of them in a mistaken way (ie. self), and to grasp to their parts and objects of desire/aversion in mistaken ways.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby 5heaps » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:youre either very very wrong or your wording is too imprecise.
It seems maybe your wording is a bit impercise:
after all, persons must exist in order to think of them in a mistaken way (ie. self)

the reason why it feels as though there is a little "me" inside of the 5 heaps controlling everything is not because a mind with a personality does not exist, but rather, because the arising of this very thing creates the illusion of substantiality/nature/essence [of being unchanging, independent, etc].
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:06 am

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:youre either very very wrong or your wording is too imprecise.
It seems maybe your wording is a bit impercise:
after all, persons must exist in order to think of them in a mistaken way (ie. self)

the reason why it feels as though there is a little "me" inside of the 5 heaps controlling everything is not because a mind with a personality does not exist, but rather, because the arising of this very thing creates the illusion of substantiality/nature/essence [of being unchanging, independent, etc].
Yes, and I am not sure that Zom is saying anything different from that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:14 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
chandrafabian wrote:
Dear Tilt, Nirodha Samapatti is an experience of Nibbana most closely resemblance to Anupadisesa Nibbana (Nibbana without remainder).
Says who? The only way that could be vefied is by an arahant who died and then came back to tell us about it.
Says me, we don't need Arahant coming back from Nibbana to tell us, we can use our common sense to learn which mental factor has stopped, compared to similar experience by Phala Samapatti attainer.
And then draw conclusion from there.

Only Arahat or Anagami who has achieved 8th Jhana can experience Nirodha Samapatti.
Sure, but it is not necessary for full awakening.
What do you mean by Full Awakening? do you mean Sammasambodhi?

Mettacittena,
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:50 pm

chandrafabian wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chandrafabian wrote:
Dear Tilt, Nirodha Samapatti is an experience of Nibbana most closely resemblance to Anupadisesa Nibbana (Nibbana without remainder).
Says who? The only way that could be vefied is by an arahant who died and then came back to tell us about it.
Says me, we don't need Arahant coming back from Nibbana to tell us, we can use our common sense to learn which mental factor has stopped, compared to similar experience by Phala Samapatti attainer.
And then draw conclusion from there.
Let us see some sutta support for your claim, please.

Only Arahat or Anagami who has achieved 8th Jhana can experience Nirodha Samapatti.
Sure, but it is not necessary for full awakening.
What do you mean by Full Awakening? do you mean Sammasambodhi?[/quote]Sambodhi, which is no different for an arahant than it is for a Buddha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: About nibbana

Postby chandrafabian » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:09 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chandrafabian wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Says who? The only way that could be vefied is by an arahant who died and then came back to tell us about it.
Says me, we don't need Arahant coming back from Nibbana to tell us, we can use our common sense to learn which mental factor has stopped, compared to similar experience by Phala Samapatti attainer.
And then draw conclusion from there.
Let us see some sutta support for your claim, please.


Dear Tilt, read these:
Nibbana with khandha remaining,
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

Nirodha samapatti:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways without a sequel."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

No khandha remaining (anupadisesa Nibbana),
And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."[2]


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

Only Arahat or Anagami who has achieved 8th Jhana can experience Nirodha Samapatti.
Sure, but it is not necessary for full awakening.
What do you mean by Full Awakening? do you mean Sammasambodhi?[/quote]Sambodhi, which is no different for an arahant than it is for a Buddha.

Yes, not necessary but attainable for Anagami and/or Arahant with 8th jhana achievement.

Mettacittena,
fabian
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Re: About nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:29 am

chandrafabian wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chandrafabian wrote:Says me, we don't need Arahant coming back from Nibbana to tell us, we can use our common sense to learn which mental factor has stopped, compared to similar experience by Phala Samapatti attainer.
And then draw conclusion from there.
Let us see some sutta support for your claim, please.


Dear Tilt, read these:
Nibbana with khandha remaining,
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

Nirodha samapatti:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways without a sequel."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

No khandha remaining (anupadisesa Nibbana),
And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."[2]


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044

Only Arahat or Anagami who has achieved 8th Jhana can experience Nirodha Samapatti.
Sure, but it is not necessary for full awakening.
What do you mean by Full Awakening? do you mean Sammasambodhi?
Sambodhi, which is no different for an arahant than it is for a Buddha.

Yes, not necessary but attainable for Anagami and/or Arahant with 8th jhana achievement.[/quote]What is not necessary? Sambodhi?

As for your quotes, they seem not to make your point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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