Goenka question

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Goenka question

Postby Milen:))) » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:52 pm

Greating to all. :smile:
I already read the previos post about Goenka and Dalai Lama so in my maind apear some question.
I hade made alredy 3 time 10 day vipassana course and now I am going to do Sathipathana course in Bodhgaya.I also did quite a lot of searving in this tradition.I like the thehnik and the discipline in this courses but every time in me coming some dout when I lisen Goenka"s discourses.I need some help to solve it.
In his speach how I remember Goenka criticise the metod of verbalisation including- counting,mantra and every taip of verbalisation but in the comentary of Anapana sutra counting is given in the first thetrad like preleminary metod.Also I read Anapana dipany from Ledy Sayadaw uich is supouse to be part of Goenka"s tradition and there hy also including counthing as a part of first tetrad.This is my first doubt.Pleas coment.
The second is that in his discourses Goenka speak about the ather traditions that they luse the thehice of practise and they have only the Paly canon.He speak that only in Birma the thehniq is still exsiste.What you thing about it?
I was surching also for book from Ledy Sayadaw about the thehnique of scaning the body because how I know he was give this metod to Sayategi his ley disciple but I did not find it.If this book exist I will be happy if somebody geav some link to it.
Thank you to everybody. I thing this forum is very helpfull for me and I enjoying to reading it.
I am sory for my english :embarassed: .I hope some of you will anderstend it :bow:
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Re: Goenka question

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:27 pm

He doesn't so much criticise counting and verbalisation but he stresses that those are not part of the technique that he is teaching. If you prefer counting and verbalisation then go ahead and do that, if you prefer body sweeping then do that, but don't mix them as they aren't really designed to work together.
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Re: Goenka question

Postby Ben » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:30 pm

Hi Milen, welcome to Dhamma Wheel!

Milen:))) wrote: I hade made alredy 3 time 10 day vipassana course and now I am going to do Sathipathana course in Bodhgaya.I also did quite a lot of searving in this tradition.I like the thehnik and the discipline in this courses but every time in me coming some dout when I lisen Goenka"s discourses.I need some help to solve it.

I recommend that you raise these questions with a senior assistant teacher in this tradition. Great to hear you are going to Bodh Gaya to do your Satipatthana Sutta Course
In his speach how I remember Goenka criticise the metod of verbalisation including- counting,mantra and every taip of verbalisation but in the comentary of Anapana sutra counting is given in the first thetrad like preleminary metod.Also I read Anapana dipany from Ledy Sayadaw uich is supouse to be part of Goenka"s tradition and there hy also including counthing as a part of first tetrad.This is my first doubt.Pleas coment.

In the Anapana-dipani, Ledi Sayadaw also recommends that after the mind becomes concentrated to drop the verbalisation. What Goenkaji is doing by not using verbalisation isn't particularly inconsistent. The verbalisation is used as a tool and then it is dropped. In his teaching method, he is preferring not to use the verbalisation as it can also turn into a hindrance.

The second is that in his discourses Goenka speak about the ather traditions that they luse the thehice of practise and they have only the Paly canon.He speak that only in Birma the thehniq is still exsiste.What you thing about it?

I don't know. I know that Goenkaji associates this tradition with the Dhamma brought to Burma by Uttara and Sona. The thing to remember is that there are many valid forms of Vipassana meditation. If I get an opportunity to meet with Goenkaji again before he dies, one of the questions I will ask him will be regarding evidence of the provenance of this particular method. In the meantime, I just tend to ignore these types of statements.

I was surching also for book from Ledy Sayadaw about the thehnique of scaning the body because how I know he was give this metod to Sayategi his ley disciple but I did not find it.If this book exist I will be happy if somebody geav some link to it.

I am also searching for the book. I am not sure that all the books of Ledi Sayadaw have been published into English yet. When I go to Burma at the end of this year, I intend to visit the Ledi Monastery north of Monwya and perhaps I will get to speak to senior monks there regarding Ledi Sayadaw.

All the very best with your coming Satipatthana Sutta Course!
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Goenka question

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:46 pm

Goofaholix wrote:He doesn't so much criticise counting and verbalisation but he stresses that those are not part of the technique that he is teaching. If you prefer counting and verbalisation then go ahead and do that, if you prefer body sweeping then do that, but don't mix them as they aren't really designed to work together.

I think that this is an important point to emphasise. While all teachers are trying to get their students to the same end point, the details of the instructions in their particular approaches differ, and mixing them up can lead to considerable confusion.

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Re: Goenka question

Postby Milen:))) » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:00 am

Goofaholix wrote:He doesn't so much criticise counting and verbalisation but he stresses that those are not part of the technique that he is teaching. If you prefer counting and verbalisation then go ahead and do that, if you prefer body sweeping then do that, but don't mix them as they aren't really designed to work together.

Thank you for this advice Goofaholix.I use counting only when begining anapana afther I continue without.
Ben wrote:Hi Milen, welcome to Dhamma Wheel!
I recommend that you raise these questions with a senior assistant teacher in this tradition. Great to hear you are going to Bodh Gaya to do your Satipatthana Sutta Course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Milen : Hi Ben and thank you for your reply.I alredy did Sathpathana cours in Bodhagaya and it was amazing.I can tell to everybody who looking for perfect place for practicing meditation that the Goenkas vipassana courses are one of the best organised place for this purpouse.
I did not ask the teacher there about my cuestion becouse I alredy was asking him in Damma Dipa in England and the answer I do not wont to coment here.
Ben
In the Anapana-dipani, Ledi Sayadaw also recommends that after the mind becomes concentrated to drop the verbalisation. What Goenkaji is doing by not using verbalisation isn't particularly inconsistent. The verbalisation is used as a tool and then it is dropped. In his teaching method, he is preferring not to use the verbalisation as it can also turn into a hindrance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Milen : You are very right about this but Goenka never explane it in his discourses and that can couse to some people to totaly avoid this practis wich can be very helpfull for them espetialy for anapana.
It was strange for me to know that old student who practicing vipassana 12 years did not know that anapana can be use also for vipasana and not only for calming the mind and jhana wich was Goenkas explanation on this course.
The second is that in his discourses Goenka speak about the ather traditions that they luse the thehice of practise and they have only the Paly canon.He speak that only in Birma the thehniq is still exsiste.What you thing about it

I don't know. I know that Goenkaji associates this tradition with the Dhamma brought to Burma by Uttara and Sona. The thing to remember is that there are many valid forms of Vipassana meditation. If I get an opportunity to meet with Goenkaji again before he dies, one of the questions I will ask him will be regarding evidence of the provenance of this particular method. In the meantime, I just tend to ignore these types of statements.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Milen ; Ben you can lisen again the 10 days Goenkas discourses an you will know with shure.Acourding to what I heard in his discourses that is not Goenkas opinion that there are many valid forms of Vipassana.I am happy that it is your.It will be very good to ask him when you meet with ,is he aweare about that the Ledi Sayadaw picture on the Manual of Dhamma wich I thing is made by vipassana risurch institut is modifite and on the original one Ledi Saiadaw keep MALA(mala mean many conected small bouls and is use for repeathing mantras).I do not have this photo but this told me one very old student whit hum I was speak in Bodhgaya.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------quote BEN
I am also searching for the book. I am not sure that all the books of Ledi Sayadaw have been published into English yet. When I go to Burma at the end of this year, I intend to visit the Ledi Monastery north of Monwya and perhaps I will get to speak to senior monks there regarding Ledi Sayadaw.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I thing if this book exist it will be translated imidiatly.I have freand who already was visit the Ledi Sayadaw monastery and he told me that there monks do not use this technik.I was read somewere that in Birma still exist a few Ledi Sayadaw meditation centres so it will be good to check also there.
I do not have doubt about the thecnicue even I can not find from were it is coming.
I doubt only because Goenka sometimes speaking about things wich he do not realy practice and expirience(wolking meditation/Mahasi and Tai stail/foling and rising abdomena and so on).All this things cousing to people like me to have doubt and to some people to have sectarian vew.In Bodhgaya I was asking some student from were can I purcase damma book and answere was that is beather to take from Vipassana institute in Igatpure(if I remember)becouse only there there is pure Dhamma. :cookoo:
Milen


Thank you Ben and if the moderator thing that this mesage can couse more doubt to other people I will be happy if he delete it or moderate.
Metta
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Last edited by Milen:))) on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Goenka question

Postby Milen:))) » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:33 am

I am sorry that I made mistake up there and I can not edit properly. :toilet:
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Re: Goenka question

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:35 am

most meditation teachers believe that their method is the best- that's why they teach it. I think it is ok to say what is good about your method but maybe stop short of criticising other methods allowing for what you dont know. After all no one single meditation method works for everyone- even the Buddha didnt believe that- hence we have 12 different methods of meditation in the satipatthana sutta alone.

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Re: Goenka question

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:26 am

Hi Milen

Great to hear you had a good course experience during your Satipatthana Sutta course. That is good news!

You are very right about this but Goenka never explane it in his discourses and that can couse to some people to totaly avoid this practis wich can be very helpfull for them espetialy for anapana.
I understand. I guess it is his experience that students are benefited by practicing anapana by observing the 'bare breath'.

It was strange for me to know that old student who practicing vipassana 12 years did not know that anapana can be use also for vipasana and not only for calming the mind and jhana wich was Goenkas explanation on this course.
Many 'old students' who practice exclusively do not seek teachings or knowledge outside the discourses and teachings of Mr Goenka. Its their prerogative and its not something I would recommend. You will find that while there are many who do not look outside Mr Goenka's teachings, there are probably more old students who, like me, read very widely. Mr Goenka encourages pariyatti, and two online dhamma-book sellers were established by old students of SN Goenka (www.dhammabooks.com and www.pariyatti.org)

lisen again the 10 days Goenkas discourses an you will know with shure.Acourding to what I heard in his discourses that is not Goenkas opinion that there are many valid forms of Vipassana.I am happy that it is your.
I have actually listened to the discoures in excess of 30 or 40 times. There are some things that I take "with a grain of salt" or treat as "skilful means". The important thing for me during a course is to maintain sampajanna. Having sat and served so many courses, the discourses are little more than a distraction to me.

It will be very good to ask him when you meet with ,is he aweare about that the Ledi Sayadaw picture on the Manual of Dhamma wich I thing is made by vipassana risurch institut is modifite and on the original one Ledi Saiadaw keep MALA(mala mean many conected small bouls and is use for repeathing mantras).I do not have this photo but this told me one very old student whit hum I was speak in Bodhgaya.
I'm not so sure, Milen. Malas used in the Theravada tradition may be used to count the breath or counting recitations of suttas.

I thing if this book exist it will be translated imidiatly.I have freand who already was visit the Ledi Sayadaw monastery and he told me that there monks do not use this technik.I was read somewere that in Birma still exist a few Ledi Sayadaw meditation centres so it will be good to check also there.
If I get time, I'll look them up. I only have five days at the end of my retreat to spend travelling and visiting sites connected to the Dhamma.
I do not have doubt about the thecnicue even I can not find from were it is coming.
Me either. Though, like you, I am frustrated at not being able to establish its provenance.
I doubt only because Goenka sometimes speaking about things wich he do not realy practice and expirience(wolking meditation/Mahasi and Tai stail/foling and rising abdomena and so on).All this things cousing to people like me to have doubt and to some people to have sectarian vew.
I think Mr Goenka is teaching only that he believes is most beneficial.
In Bodhgaya I was asking some student from were can I purcase damma book and answere was that is beather to take from Vipassana institute in Igatpure(if I remember)becouse only there there is pure Dhamma

Milen, some people, after having a profoundly moving experience become very devotional. I went through that phase but eventually after practicing for years and doing many courses and being exposed to different presentations of the Dhamma, that the truth is a bit more complicated than Mr Goenka having a monopoly of 'pure Dhamma'. Treat it as an artefact of one old student's understanding - nothing more. If you want a Dhamma book - check out the website addresses I mentioned. Furthermore, if you are looking for a really good Dhamma book, I highly recommend Ven Analayo's "Satipatthana: the direct path to realization" Windhorse Publications. It is brilliant.
Anyway Milen, I hope these frustrations do not discourage you from maintaining your practice! There is an old saying - "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Goenka question

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:11 pm

rowyourboat wrote:. After all no one single meditation method works for everyone- even the Buddha didnt believe that- hence we have 12 different methods of meditation in the satipatthana sutta alone.

RYB


I think it's worth trying out different methods to find what works best.

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Re: Goenka question

Postby Milen:))) » Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:29 am

[/quote]
rowyourboat wrote:most meditation teachers believe that their method is the best- that's why they teach it. I think it is ok to say what is good about your method but maybe stop short of criticising other methods allowing for what you dont know. After all no one single meditation method works for everyone- even the Buddha didnt believe that- hence we have 12 different methods of meditation in the satipatthana sutta alone.

with metta

RYB



Yes you are right.This is the reason that I prefere to lisen or read ,damma tolk or books from the forest tradition.They have some kind "midle way"of speaking so I like it.

Ben wrote:Furthermore, if you are looking for a really good Dhamma book, I highly recommend Ven Analayo's "Satipatthana: the direct path to realization" Windhorse Publications. It is brilliant.
Anyway Milen, I hope these frustrations do not discourage you from maintaining your practice! There is an old saying - "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".


Thank you for the book Ben.I will try to find it.
The reason to still practice this tipe of meditation is not Goenka but what I expiriance.Before to start Goenka vipassana I was practising wolking and anapana meditation.I was using for instruction the book from Bhikhu Khantipalo(I am not shure that the spealing is right).This path of prakticing was very efective for me but afther some times in my mind come this idea that I shud take instruction from teacher and in my country(Bulgaria)it was only Goenkas vipassana avalible.If I had choise at this time may be I wold prefere forest tradition or Mahasi Sayadaw becouse I like more this way of thiching but it was not posible at this moment.
Enyway,Goenka is not the theacher wich I wold like to have but some of the people wich I meet in this tradition are realy helpfull for me and becouse for me is obvious that they have great benefit from this practise this also make me to stay in this tradition.
Thank you Ben,RYB and Spiny
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Re: Goenka question

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:34 am

No problem, Milen!
Its good to "meet" someone who has done a ten-day course in Bulgaria. I was checking out the details of the course location for our friend and Dhamma Wheel member "Stefan" who returned home to Bulgaria to live for about six months a year or so ago.
As I said earlier, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", which is an English idiom which means that the benefit of anything is actually from doing it. As you may recall, its a message that Goenka gives in one of the last discourses in a ten-day course. If you see a black stone (cardamom seed), take it out. Keep up your practice Milen, and if at some point in the future you get the opportunity to do a Mahasi retreat or a retreat in the Ajahn Chah tradition, then take it!
I wish you all the very best!
with Metta

Ben

PS: Bhikkhu Khantipalo made an impression on me many years ago when i read his book "Calm and Insight". I never met Ven Khantipalo and i believe he disrobed many years ago.
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Re: Goenka question

Postby cooran » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:48 am

Hello all,

Khantipalo disrobed many years ago and married. My understanding is that this relationship has broken up.
His layman name is Laurence Mills and he started a centre in Cairns. I think he may visit Sydney regularly.
http://www.bodhikusuma.com/metta/laurence_mills.html

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