Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Nyana
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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby Nyana » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:42 pm

PeterB wrote:I dont start threads by taking posts out of their context.

You're no shrinking violet Peter. And your quote wasn't taken out of context. I didn't give any context for your quote at all. And seeing that that has caused some confusion, I apologize.

Now, to be clear: This thread is about discussing suññatā according to the teachings of the Pāḷi dhamma. It's not about Peter or Geoff or Eric Berne or Ven. Thích Nhất Hạnh.

All the best,

Geoff

Edit: I've edited the OP to better give accurate context to this thread.

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:07 pm

:toilet:

thread quickly turn to fights when we involve each other and not just ideas. lets hope this one can be saved as it is an interesting topic.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby JeffR » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:01 am

There is much learning in conflict. And no one gets hurt here.

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:04 am

JeffR wrote:There is much learning in conflict. And no one gets hurt here.

really? history doesn't point to any thing ever being learned from conflict.... just more conflict. and the argument postshere just lead to longer and longer argument posts. also are you sure people never get hurt? or is it you just don't care about their feelings?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:06 am

Having had occasion several times recently to reflect on the matter I have reached the conclusion that my style is not appropriate for the house style of the forum, The result is that it simply causes problems and dissonance. I accept full responsibility for this, it is in no way a refelection on the forum or its stimulating members or excellent mods. However I have become an unwitting cause of dissonance.
So, with real gratitude and heaps of metta to all I will take my leave.
This is not an appeal for sympathy or an invitation to change my mind. Really. :smile:

:anjali:

Peter.

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby Nyana » Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:50 pm

PeterB wrote:Having had occasion several times recently to reflect on the matter I have reached the conclusion that my style is not appropriate for the house style of the forum, The result is that it simply causes problems and dissonance. I accept full responsibility for this, it is in no way a refelection on the forum or its stimulating members or excellent mods. However I have become an unwitting cause of dissonance.
So, with real gratitude and heaps of metta to all I will take my leave.
This is not an appeal for sympathy or an invitation to change my mind. Really.

Hi Peter,

I've always considered your style to be appropriate. And I've always appreciated your contributions to discussions.

IMO (and I'm sure you're aware of this too) this type of internet forum conversation -- where bits of each participants contribution are frozen in time, and there is no possibility of fully ascertaining the tone or the body language or the general disposition, etc., of the other participants comments in real time and in person -- imposes some limitations on accurate interpretation and understanding which would not be present in person to person conversation. Thus, for myself it seems important to generally give other posters the benefit of assuming that they are not trying to cause dissonance; and informed disagreement is always an opportunity for me to learn and to try to improve my own communication skills. On that note, this thread has demonstrated my lack of accurately considering your perspective when I carelessly added your post to the OP without clarification of why your post stimulated me to create this thread in the first place.

Anyway, I wish you'd continue here, as Dhamma Wheel is richer with you than without you. But as you feel that it's time to take leave, I respect that too. It's my hope that you'll at least keep open the possibility of returning at some point.

:anjali:

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:27 am

PeterB wrote:Having had occasion several times recently to reflect on the matter I have reached the conclusion that my style is not appropriate for the house style of the forum, The result is that it simply causes problems and dissonance. I accept full responsibility for this, it is in no way a refelection on the forum or its stimulating members or excellent mods. However I have become an unwitting cause of dissonance.
So, with real gratitude and heaps of metta to all I will take my leave.
This is not an appeal for sympathy or an invitation to change my mind. Really. :smile:

:anjali:

Peter.


Darn. Sorry to hear it. You are one of the few here whos posts i almost always find interesting. Imo the forum will be poorer without your voice.

Metta :bow:
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby Vepacitta » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:48 am

Well - this could have been a good thread. I mentioned in the TNH post that the Pali canon does mention sunnyata - in the MN - the Maha Sunnata Sutta. It's also discussed I believe in the Samyutta Nikaya.

Someone else here took up the idea and made a separate thread - what's the big deal? Statements announcing that Theravadin teachings don't discuss sunnyata aren't accurate - and should be addressed.

Some people don't want to hear things that they don't want to hear - and get bent out of shape. And things devolve into nasty arguments on this forum.

We could't even get a good discussion going about 'fear of death' which could be a VERY interesting subject - it devolved into a "you don't know dhamma thread".

Let's face - none of us here really know the Dhamma - but we're seeking it - practising it - or trying to.

V.
I'm your friendly, neighbourhood Asura

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby SDC » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:39 am

Vepacitta wrote:Someone else here took up the idea and made a separate thread - what's the big deal? Statements announcing that Theravadin teachings don't discuss sunnyata aren't accurate - and should be addressed.


When someone starts a new thread with a quote from another discussion, I think it would be helpful to the rest of us, and fair to the person who was quoted, if they could provide a link to the thread where it is from. That was not done, so I said something. I've seen that several times on dhammawheel, and I don't think its good practice. Do you disagree?

Otherwise I see no problem in doing so...we should all be responsible for what we say here.

Vepacitta wrote:Some people don't want to hear things that they don't want to hear - and get bent out of shape. And things devolve into nasty arguments on this forum.

We could't even get a good discussion going about 'fear of death' which could be a VERY interesting subject - it devolved into a "you don't know dhamma thread".

Let's face - none of us here really know the Dhamma - but we're seeking it - practising it - or trying to.

V.


Well said.

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:58 am

since this thread has gone on to have nothing to do with the original post, I'm wondering if it would just be better for the OP to start a better worded post on the subject and let this one die.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby octathlon » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:44 am

PeterB wrote:Having had occasion several times recently to reflect on the matter I have reached the conclusion that my style is not appropriate for the house style of the forum, The result is that it simply causes problems and dissonance. I accept full responsibility for this, it is in no way a refelection on the forum or its stimulating members or excellent mods. However I have become an unwitting cause of dissonance.
So, with real gratitude and heaps of metta to all I will take my leave.
This is not an appeal for sympathy or an invitation to change my mind. Really. :smile:

:anjali:

Peter.

Hi Peter,
You might consider trying a "middle way" of neither the one extreme of leaving the forum nor the other extreme of continuing on indefinitely with an argument. In other words, once you've made your position clear you don't have to continue just because the other person does. But in any case, I have learned a lot from your posts, so thanks for them. :smile:
:anjali:

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby Reductor » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:52 am

octathlon wrote:Hi Peter,
You might consider trying a "middle way" of neither the one extreme of leaving the forum nor the other extreme of continuing on indefinitely with an argument. In other words, once you've made your position clear you don't have to continue just because the other person does. But in any case, I have learned a lot from your posts, so thanks for them. :smile:
:anjali:


Thanks for that octathlon as I think you've underscored a significant cause for friction here: last-word-man-ship!

It can be distressing that after making what we think if a well reasoned and well worded argument, the other party continues not to agree with us. At that point we might feel compelled to reiterate or rehash previous points, perhaps out of fear that we haven't been sufficiently clear, or that the other party is intentionally missing our meaning. But really, if we've said our piece then there isn't a good reason to repeat ourselves again and again, as the other party is unlikely to come to our perspective anyway (as is the case with those passive readers that disagree with you).
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby plwk » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:39 am

Image
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby christopher::: » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:42 am

Maybe this is one of those Zen koan threads, where our meaningless conversations provide proof of the empty nature of the self, and no further discussion is needed.

In any case, i do hope Peter returns.

:juggling:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma

Postby zengammon » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:47 pm

I just want to say that I really appreciate this forum and the efforts of those who contribute to it. I have little aptitude for the forum dynamic, so I can appreciate the difficulties of participating and of holding it all together. To me, it's surprising that Dhamma Wheel achieves the level of discussion that it often does. Bravo.

As a Seon/Zen practitioner, I have to say that I was looking forward to hearing what Theravadans had to say on the OP subject--at least, that is, on what I thought the subject was in the beginning.

There are many unseen benefits that result from the information that flows through here.

thanks all and best wishes,

John


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