When did Ven Ananda ordain?

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When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:33 am

Ven Dr Analayo, at the 2007 International Congress on the Women's Role in the Sangha, said that Ven Ananda ordained 20 years after the Buddha's enlightenment ( http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... art_2.html).
However other sources like Buddhanet said Ven Ananda ordained 2 years after the Buddha's enlightenment and became his personal attendant 20 years after the Buddha's enlightenment. (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... 12lbud.htm)

Does anyone know the scriptural references for these 2 conflicting claims?
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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby Alexei » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:53 am

Ānanda entered the Order in the second year of the Buddha's ministry, together with other Sākiyan princes, such as Bhaddiya, Anuruddha, Bhagu, Kimbila and Devadatta, and was ordained by the Buddha himself (Vin.ii.182), his upajjhāya being Belatthasīsa (ThagA.i.68; also DA.ii.418ff.; Vin.i.202; iv. 86).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... ananda.htm
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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:27 am

OK...I found the reasoning that gives rise to a conflicting timing of Ananda's ordination as stated in the Vinaya account.

Quote Ven Analayo: "According to Th 1039-1040, Ananda had been a sekha for twenty-five years. SN 22.83 at SN III 106,3 and Vin II 183,21 place his stream-entry shortly after his going forth, and Vin II 286,11 indicates that he became an arahant only after the Buddha's demise. From this it would follow that he only went forth some twenty five years before the Buddha passed away, and thus about twenty years after the beginning of the Buddha's ministry. "
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha356.htm
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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:26 am

pilgrim wrote:OK...I found the reasoning that gives rise to a conflicting timing of Ananda's ordination as stated in the Vinaya account.

Quote Ven Analayo: "According to Th 1039-1040, Ananda had been a sekha for twenty-five years. SN 22.83 at SN III 106,3 and Vin II 183,21 place his stream-entry shortly after his going forth, and Vin II 286,11 indicates that he became an arahant only after the Buddha's demise. From this it would follow that he only went forth some twenty five years before the Buddha passed away, and thus about twenty years after the beginning of the Buddha's ministry. "
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha356.htm


And given that some accounts place Ananda's actual birth at the same time as the buddha's awakening, then:

Gautama, age 35, becomes "the buddha". Ananda is born.
Ananda reaches age 20, and ordains. The buddha is now 55.
Buddha parinibbanizes at age 81, 26 years later.
Straight after this, Ananda reaches arhatta.

Give or take a couple of months on either side of these dates, they match up nicely with the idea that Ananda was sotapanna for 25 years, and attained arhatta straight after the parinibbana.

Rarely do such historical dates match up so well ... :tongue:
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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:00 pm

Paññāsikhara wrote:
pilgrim wrote:OK...I found the reasoning that gives rise to a conflicting timing of Ananda's ordination as stated in the Vinaya account.

Quote Ven Analayo: "According to Th 1039-1040, Ananda had been a sekha for twenty-five years. SN 22.83 at SN III 106,3 and Vin II 183,21 place his stream-entry shortly after his going forth, and Vin II 286,11 indicates that he became an arahant only after the Buddha's demise. From this it would follow that he only went forth some twenty five years before the Buddha passed away, and thus about twenty years after the beginning of the Buddha's ministry. "
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha356.htm


And given that some accounts place Ananda's actual birth at the same time as the buddha's awakening, then:

Gautama, age 35, becomes "the buddha". Ananda is born.
Ananda reaches age 20, and ordains. The buddha is now 55.
Buddha parinibbanizes at age 81, 26 years later.
Straight after this, Ananda reaches arhatta.

Give or take a couple of months on either side of these dates, they match up nicely with the idea that Ananda was sotapanna for 25 years, and attained arhatta straight after the parinibbana.

Rarely do such historical dates match up so well ... :tongue:

Panna, the sources indicate that Ananda and Siddhartha were born on the same day..
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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:11 am

pilgrim wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:
pilgrim wrote:OK...I found the reasoning that gives rise to a conflicting timing of Ananda's ordination as stated in the Vinaya account.

Quote Ven Analayo: "According to Th 1039-1040, Ananda had been a sekha for twenty-five years. SN 22.83 at SN III 106,3 and Vin II 183,21 place his stream-entry shortly after his going forth, and Vin II 286,11 indicates that he became an arahant only after the Buddha's demise. From this it would follow that he only went forth some twenty five years before the Buddha passed away, and thus about twenty years after the beginning of the Buddha's ministry. "
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha356.htm


And given that some accounts place Ananda's actual birth at the same time as the buddha's awakening, then:

Gautama, age 35, becomes "the buddha". Ananda is born.
Ananda reaches age 20, and ordains. The buddha is now 55.
Buddha parinibbanizes at age 81, 26 years later.
Straight after this, Ananda reaches arhatta.

Give or take a couple of months on either side of these dates, they match up nicely with the idea that Ananda was sotapanna for 25 years, and attained arhatta straight after the parinibbana.

Rarely do such historical dates match up so well ... :tongue:

Panna, the sources indicate that Ananda and Siddhartha were born on the same day..


There are many different sources, that's why I say "some accounts". If you accept that they had the same birthday, then the numbers don't add up, they are well off. If it is birthday = awakening day, then they do add up.
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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby Vepacitta » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:14 pm

Additionally, when you read the suttas, Ven. Ananda really comes off as a much younger man than the Buddha. You'll see information about Ven Ananda coming from both sides - that he was the same age and that he was 20 years younger.

I recall one sutta that I read years ago on Access to Insight - where the Buddha was telling Ven Ananda that his time was soon to be up. Ven Ananda was a bit upset and the Buddha reminded Ven Ananda that he, the Buddha was getting older, his body was failing, etc. If Ven Ananda was the same age as the Buddha, he wouldn't need to be told such a thing - he would have known what it felt like to be 80-ish. (I'm going to have to try and find that sutta - I must have read that at least 5 years ago).

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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby suanck » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:30 am

Vepacitta wrote:...
I recall one sutta that I read years ago on Access to Insight - where the Buddha was telling Ven Ananda that his time was soon to be up. Ven Ananda was a bit upset and the Buddha reminded Ven Ananda that he, the Buddha was getting older, his body was failing, etc. If Ven Ananda was the same age as the Buddha, he wouldn't need to be told such a thing - he would have known what it felt like to be 80-ish. (I'm going to have to try and find that sutta - I must have read that at least 5 years ago)...


It's in DN 16, Mahaprinibanna Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html :

"... Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, that his body is more comfortable."

Anh the paragraph which follows is well-known to all Buddhists:

"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."


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Re: When did Ven Ananda ordain?

Postby Vepacitta » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:39 am

Thanks Suanck!

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