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Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:19 am
by Lazy_eye
To what extent is personal, on-site interaction with a teacher necessary in Theravada? ("Necessary" as opposed to "beneficial").

It seems to me -- and this may be a misunderstanding on my part -- that in Theravada the greatest emphasis in on the teachings, as presented in the Pali Canon. The teacher is subordinate to the teachings, and is not some sort of a guru figure. Therefore, it should be possible to make progress via books, videos, podcasts, sutta study and discussions with fellow practitioners of the kind that we have here.

The methods of practice are clearly outlined in the suttas. Of course, it is helpful to be guided in these practices by an experienced teacher. Still, this does not necessarily have to happen within a "live" setting.

I would think breath meditation, metta and, to some degree, vipassana could be learned on one's own. Maybe not jhana.

Again, my question has to do with the necessity of a teacher. I think most of us would agree that having a teacher is a good thing. But it seems to me that in certain Mahayana traditions, personal contact with the teacher is an absolute prerequisite, almost to the point that it becomes more about the teacher than the teachings.

LE

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:50 am
by appicchato
In a general way I am in agreement with you (FWIW)...and to answer the question (from my perspective), it's not...

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:02 pm
by bodom
I always liked Buddhadasa's advice on the matter.
The next consideration is what they call an "acariya (teacher, master)".But in truth, even in the old training systems, they did not talk much about "acariya." They called such a person a "good friend (kalyana-mitta)." To say "friend" - an advisor who can help us with certain things - is correct.We should not forget, however, principle that no one can help someone else directly. Yet nowadays, everyone wants to have a teacher to supervise them! A good friend is someone who has extensive personal experience and knowledge about the meditation practice or whatever else it is that we are striving to do. Although he is able to answer questions and explain some difficulties, it is not necessary for him to sit over us and supervise every breath. A good friend who will answer questions and help us work through certain obstacles is more than enough. To have such a kalyana-mitta is one more thing to arrange.
:anjali:

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:11 pm
by Goedert
In the ancient times, the teacher and preceptor, I think, played an important rule in the trainning of a new bhikkhu. Of course they were subordinated to the vinaya and dhamma of The Lord.

Today as far technology goes and some bhikkhus go to the homeless life, just to get a living, this two figures are losing their importance. Just time will tell us if this is good or not good for the preservation of the teaching.

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:36 pm
by Sanghamitta
Not essential at all times for everyone...but often a very good idea. Particularly for those who approach Dhamma with a preexisting set of beliefs and opinions gleaned from here and there and sometime contradictory.
For specific systems like Vipassana hands on teaching is highly desirable . But there is no "guru" or " sensei" figure in the Theravada. As Ajahn Munindo says " you dont need a guru, you might though benefit from a spiritual friend who knows a bit more about all this than you do."

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:52 pm
by tiltbillings
Lazy_eye wrote: I would think breath meditation, metta and, to some degree, vipassana could be learned on one's own. Maybe not jhana.
On your own only if you are willing to not hang onto anything that arises from one's practice. It is all too easy to get bamboozled by meditative experiences. A good teacher is a good idea, but even that is not a guarantee against bamboozlement.

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:05 pm
by JeffR
It seems to me a teacher is no more necessary to learn the way of the Buddha than a teacher is necessary to learn the intricate details of quantum mechanics.

It could be done; but getting onto the wrong path or getting stuck is more likely.

-Jeff :buddha1:

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:59 pm
by mikenz66
JeffR wrote:It seems to me a teacher is no more necessary to learn the way of the Buddha than a teacher is necessary to learn the intricate details of quantum mechanics.

It could be done; but getting onto the wrong path or getting stuck is more likely.
Yes, I can vouch for that from both sides...

I'm always puzzled by those who seem to have actually learned something by simply reading Suttas. It would never have worked for me...

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:28 pm
by 5heaps
Lazy_eye wrote:Again, my question has to do with the necessity of a teacher. I think most of us would agree that having a teacher is a good thing. But it seems to me that in certain Mahayana traditions, personal contact with the teacher is an absolute prerequisite, almost to the point that it becomes more about the teacher than the teachings.
the vajrayana idea of a teacher is based on their understanding of ultimate truth. cant separate the 2 and unfortunately their idea of the ultimate is difficult

for standard mahayana its the same as theravada, good teachers are the difference between making big progress or not

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:17 pm
by DNS
I think it is one of the strengths of the Theravada that a teacher is not an absolute necessity; beneficial in some aspects, yes, but not an absolute requirement. Teachers are human and subject to human error. The Pali Canon is a much better guide, in my opinion.

Additionaly, there have been some (not all) Zen and Vajrayana teachers exploiting their power relationship over their students and getting into all kinds of scandals. More reason to rely on the texts first, imo.

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:30 pm
by bodom
David N. Snyder wrote:More reason to rely on the texts first, imo.
"Whatever Dhamma and Vinaya I have pointed out and formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone." - DN 16


:anjali:

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:48 pm
by Lazy_eye
David N. Snyder wrote:I think it is one of the strengths of the Theravada that a teacher is not an absolute necessity; beneficial in some aspects, yes, but not an absolute requirement. Teachers are human and subject to human error. The Pali Canon is a much better guide, in my opinion.

Additionaly, there have been some (not all) Zen and Vajrayana teachers exploiting their power relationship over their students and getting into all kinds of scandals. More reason to rely on the texts first, imo.
David, that was one of the concerns that prompted my question. My sense is that there's an element of transparency and accountability which is lost when the focus shifts from teachings to teacher, as in the "guru" and "sensei" models which Sanghamitta referenced earlier.

Thanks everyone. Much to ponder.

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:02 am
by 5heaps
David N. Snyder wrote:Teachers are human and subject to human error.
kind of contradicts the very notions of the sangha jewel and the dharma jewel (cessations) dont you think?
More reason to rely on the texts first, imo.
why? spoken words are the same as written ones and are subject to the same critical thinking

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:56 am
by DNS
5heaps wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
More reason to rely on the texts first, imo.
why? spoken words are the same as written ones and are subject to the same critical thinking
The texts were the teachings of Arahants. The spoken word today, in most cases, are the words of puthujjanas. No offense meant toward any teachers today, just that the Theras and Arahants of the Buddha's time are much wiser.

Re: Role of the teacher in Theravada

Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:59 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

I think the aforementioned emphasis on kalyana-mitta is correct, particularly as the Buddha pronounced this as half of the spiritual life.

See: SN 45.2: Upaddha Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)