Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Sunrise » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:08 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:
Therefore anatta has no bearing on the question "should we believe in post-mortem rebirth?"


Should we believe in post-mortem rebirth???
Super mundane practice has very little or no place for beliefs. Beliefs are for morality and the mundane cultivations. Thus, Buddhists "beliefs" and Hindu/christian beliefs all have a common cause. IMO, one is no better than the other.

While it is true that we need to answer the OP's question, I think it makes sense to at least nudge them in the right direction if possible. Stating unverifiable beliefs as ultimate truths and presenting them as "Buddha taught" can be misleading. It makes sense to direct them to things they can observe and verify for themselves here and now. It is important for a beginner to establish some amount of faith in the Dhamma by direct observation of what the Buddha has taught to be applied moment to moment. When a beginner asks about a belief in the forum and we answer with more belief theories, what difference would it make? Not much
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:17 pm

Sunrise wrote:

While it is true that we need to answer the OP's question, I think it makes sense to at least nudge them in the right direction if possible. Stating unverifiable beliefs as ultimate truths and presenting them as "Buddha taught" can be misleading. It makes sense to direct them to things they can observe and verify for themselves here and now. It is important for a beginner to establish some amount of faith in the Dhamma by direct observation of what the Buddha has taught to be applied moment to moment. When a beginner asks about a belief in the forum and we answer with more belief theories, what difference would it make? Not much



:goodpost: Absolutely agree yet again !

If I may quote Ajahn Sumedho at a recent offline talk

"What happens after death? We all have our opinions, all the religions - but the fact is we don't really know"





.
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:35 pm

Aloka wrote:.
Hi Lazy-Eye, the teachings you speak of are clearly for the purpose of morality.


And morality is not an important part of the dhamma?
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:38 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:
Aloka wrote:.
Hi Lazy-Eye, the teachings you speak of are clearly for the purpose of morality.


And morality is not an important part of the dhamma?


Did I suggest it wasn't?

.
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:59 pm

Both you and Sunrise seem to be minimizing its significance and insisting, instead, that we direct the OP to the supramundane teachings. But for the majority of laypeople, myself included, these "mundane" aspects of the dhamma are quite important, maybe even more so than the "yogic" aspects which, traditionally, were often limited to renunciants.

Also, it's not correct to say that all the religious morality systems are alike. There are some important distinctions. For example, my Christian friends have no problem with the butchering of animals because they believe it is sanctioned by the Bible.
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Sunrise » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:09 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Also, it's not correct to say that all the religious morality systems are alike. There are some important distinctions. For example, my Christian friends have no problem with the butchering of animals because they believe it is sanctioned by the Bible.


Most religious beliefs are for morality; that's what I said. Christians believe in God and do good in the hope of heaven after death don't they? I remember a Muslim friend once told me that after death their good and bad actions are accounted for like in a court and punishment is given accordingly. Buddhists believe that good kamma will gain favorable rebirths and bad kamma will give lower births in lower realms as you said. I don't see a big difference here. Do you?
Last edited by Sunrise on Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Aloka » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:21 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Both you and Sunrise seem to be minimizing its significance and insisting, instead, that we direct the OP to the supramundane teachings. But for the majority of laypeople, myself included, these "mundane" aspects of the dhamma are quite important, maybe even more so than the "yogic" aspects which, traditionally, were often limited to renunciants.




I can't speak for Sunrise I don't even know him/her. However I can speak from my own experience and understanding.

Is that not allowed here ? It almost appears as If you wish to to suppress me, a mere helpless woman, in the manner of the Spanish Inquisition, Lazy-Eye !

Whips and handcuffs at dawn ?? :D
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Sunrise » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:28 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Both you and Sunrise seem to be minimizing its significance and insisting, instead, that we direct the OP to the supramundane teachings.


No. Read my original post again. I have not minimized the significance of moral conduct. What I meant was that a Buddhist disciple doesn't necessarily need motivations like "favorable future rebirths" to be in merit. Such motivations direct the mind to building up more and more rather than letting go. It makes sense to direct someone to be in merit even if he got to know that there is no rebirth. It makes sense not to push too many beliefs into a beginner's mind. It makes sense to direct them to practice moment to moment.
Last edited by Sunrise on Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby JeffR » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:35 pm

Rybak303,
Back to your original question; here is a link
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

There are links on that page that will take you into further explanation on Kamma, human birth, etc. Please note that Buddha refuted the idea of reincarnation, the rebirths we experience is more of continual existence of a stream of consciousness which is reborn into various realms of the (or lack of) senses. Don't spend to much time wrapping your head around what the difference is, it takes awhile to grasp the concept.

A quote from the link given that may benefit others:
"It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or simply fanciful metaphors that describe the various mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of this cosmology is this: unless we take steps to break free of the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly from one state to another, with true peace and satisfaction forever out of reach."

-Jeff :buddha2:
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Sunrise » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:47 pm

Just to be fair to the OP please also note that "stream of consciousness" does not appear in pali suttas. They appear in later essays.

It is not pointless to observe the realms as mind states as it is perfectly verifiable in the here and now if you are mindful enough. So please observe the way your mind experiences these realms day to day.

:anjali:
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby JeffR » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:52 pm

Your choice Rybak,
Suttas or Sunrise.
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Sunrise » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:05 pm

JeffR wrote:Suttas or Sunrise.


Would you mind pointing me to a sutta which mentions "stream of consciousness" please?
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:29 pm

Aloka wrote:
I can't speak for Sunrise I don't even know him/her. However I can speak from my own experience and understanding.

Is that not allowed here ? It almost appears as If you wish to to suppress me, a mere helpless woman, in the manner of the Spanish Inquisition, Lazy-Eye !


Not my intention at all. Sorry if I came across that way -- thought we were just having some back-and-forth dialogue.

I seem to be picking fights right and left this week.

Whips and handcuffs at dawn ??


now, now, Aloka..this is a family-friendly site...

:tongue:

LE
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:32 am

I am locking this thread for right now in order to further review this thread, which seems to be taken way off course.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Confusion about Karma and Reincarnation

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:16 am

Simply, this is not a debate section, but this thread is starting to move in that direction. Maybe expressing one's opinions with a little less stridency and allowing that other opinions have their place within the context of the OP might be the way to go.

If one wants debate, then please take it to The Dhammic free-for-all section, home of The Great Rebirth Debate.

.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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