Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

The 4 elements contemplations seem to be a little more detailed though.

Here's a quote from the Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta (MN 140):
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.
I see section 14 on the elements is missing from Access To Insight's Samyutta Nikaya. I'm wondering if it would be worth spending $60 just to see that section, and the other texts. Or if it would be better to just get Stephen Snyder's $13 book. Mmm... :D
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mikenz66
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

Some of the SN14.X Suttas are in Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddhas Words" in Chapter IX, "Shining the light of wisdom". He also has MN140 there. Strange that there are none listed in the SN section of Access to Insight and none in either Ven Nanananda's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el183.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or Maurice Walshes's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; collections of Suttas from the SN.

You can read them on-line here: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
13. Dhātu Saṃyutta
However, translations on that sites are sometimes a little hard to follow...

Mike
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BlackBird
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by BlackBird »

Here's an interesting Sutta from the Bojjhangasangyutta, Mahavagga of the Sangyutta Nikaya. It's a lesser known job, but the only Sutta (to my knowledge) within the Nikayas which is vastly different from the stock formulation of metta practice:
"And how, monks, does a monk cultivate the heart's release by loving-kindness? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome?

"In this case, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factor of mindfulness accompanied by loving-kindness and similarly the enlightenment-factors of investigation-of-states, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration, equanimity, accompanied by loving-kindness which is based on detachment, dispassion, leading to maturity of surrender. If he wishes to dwell perceiving the repulsive in what is not repulsive, he dwells thus perceiving the repulsive. If he wishes to dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in what is repulsive, he dwells thus perceiving the unrepulsive. If he wishes to dwell perceiving the repulsive both in what is repulsive and what is not repulsive, if he wishes to dwell perceiving the unrepulsive in both... he dwells thus. If he wishes, avoiding both the repulsive and unrepulsive, to dwell equanimous,[270] mindful and clearly aware,[271] he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful and clearly aware, or, attaining the heart's release called 'beautiful'[272] he abides there. I declare that the heart's release by loving-kindness has the beautiful for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release.[273] And how, monks, does a monk cultivate release by compassion? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome? In this, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factors of mindfulness... equanimity accompanied by compassion... [as above]... he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful, clearly aware or, by passing utterly beyond all perceptions of objects, by the going-down of perceptions of sensory reactions,[274] by disregarding perceptions of diversity, thinking 'space is infinite,' he attains and dwells in the sphere of infinite space.[275] I declare that the heart's release by compassion has the sphere of infinite space for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release.

"And how, monks, does a monk cultivate the heart's release by sympathetic joy? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome?

"In this, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factors of mindfulness... equanimity accompanied by sympathetic joy... [as above...] he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful, clearly aware or, by passing utterly beyond the sphere of infinite space, thinking 'consciousness is infinite,' he attains and dwells in the sphere of infinite consciousness.[276] I declare that the heart's release by sympathetic joy has the sphere of infinite consciousness for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release.

"And how, monks, does a monk cultivate the heart's release by equanimity? What is its goal, its excellence, its fruit and its outcome?

"In this case, monks, a monk cultivates the enlightenment-factors of mindfulness, investigation-of-states, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration, equanimity accompanied by equanimity[277] which is based on detachment, dispassion, leading to maturity of surrender. If he wishes to dwell... [as above...] he dwells thus, equanimous, mindful and clearly aware. Or by passing utterly beyond the sphere of infinite consciousness, thinking 'there is nothing,' he attains and dwells in the sphere of nothingness.[278] I declare that the heart's release by equanimity had the sphere of nothingness for its excellence. This is the attainment of a wise monk who penetrates to no higher release."
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#vagga-5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately this is just an extract, but you get the gist. For those with a copy of Ven. Bodhi's translation at the ready, you'll find it on page 1607. As a side note to this side note, one might rightly ask how one is to cultivate equanimity accompanied by compassion, the two would seem to be at cross purposes. In my opinion this could mean that equanimity as an enlightenment factor, is different to equanimity as a brahma vihara & kammaṭṭhāna. But I am just theorizing and chucking ideas around.

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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

mikenz66 wrote:Some of the SN14.X Suttas are in Bhikkhu Bodhi's "In the Buddhas Words" in Chapter IX, "Shining the light of wisdom". He also has MN140 there. Strange that there are none listed in the SN section of Access to Insight and none in either Ven Nanananda's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el183.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or Maurice Walshes's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el318.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; collections of Suttas from the SN.
Probably because most teachers think the 4 elements are too Indian for us Westerners. Even Ajahn Brahm completely skips over the elements in the Satipatthana section of his Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond book. This is why I was so ecstatic when I found Stephen Snyder's book, because it's one of the FEW English resources I've come across that details not only breath meditation, but also brahma-vihara and 4 elements meditation.
You can read them on-line here: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
13. Dhātu Saṃyutta
However, translations on that sites are sometimes a little hard to follow...

Mike
Thank you! I'm going to look through those right now.
Last edited by mettafuture on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi BlackBird,

Thank you for drawing our attention to that very interesting Sutta.
BlackBird wrote: As a side note to this side note, one might rightly ask how one is to cultivate equanimity accompanied by compassion, the two would seem to be at cross purposes. In my opinion this could mean that equanimity as an enlightenment factor, is different to equanimity as a brahma vihara & kammaṭṭhāna. But I am just theorizing and chucking ideas around.
The standard line would be that they tend to balance each other. Equanimity prevents the compassion from becoming merely sadness. Compassion prevents the equanimity from becoming merely a detachment. It might be interesting to examine to what extent that idea is implicit in the Suttas, or commentaries, and to what extent it is a later development. I don't really see such ideas expressed in the Visuddhimagga, which focusses on attaining jhana based on the brahmaviharas.

Mike
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by alan »

Didn't mean to give the impression that I don't dig BB--his footnotes are valuable. If money is no object, go ahead and get it.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mettafuture wrote:. How important, in your opinion, is it to have a complete Nikaya? I've been eye-balling Bhikkhu Nanamoli's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Middle Length Discourses on Amazon for the last couple of weeks. Should I get it? Am I missing out on any amazing suttas by not having it?
If you can afford it, I would recommend buying a copy - there's something special about having a book in your hands. Just be aware that there are different ways of translating the Pali, so I'd advise not getting too attached to a particular forms of words.

Spiny
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mettafuture
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
mettafuture wrote:. How important, in your opinion, is it to have a complete Nikaya? I've been eye-balling Bhikkhu Nanamoli's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Middle Length Discourses on Amazon for the last couple of weeks. Should I get it? Am I missing out on any amazing suttas by not having it?
If you can afford it, I would recommend buying a copy
I've been thinking about this a lot since making this thread, and I kind of agree with Individual. Why should we have to spend between $30 and $60 for discourses that the Buddha gave to the world for free? All of the Nikayas from Wisdom Publications have been digitized; each book is available in epub and Kindle format. Why not just released these files online? Instead, the electronic versions cost almost as much as the hardcovers, and are locked by DRM.

I think I'd rather give a big donation to Access To Insight. They've been doing GREAT work as of late, and it's all available for free.
Just be aware that there are different ways of translating the Pali, so I'd advise not getting too attached to a particular forms of words.
Very good advice.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mettafuture,

Ah, but if A2I rely on donations (either from users, or self-supported by the owner), it's really not much different to other mechanisms for distributing the Dhamma, is it?

In other words, there is always a cost involved... whether it be borne by the recipient or the giver.

Wisdom Publications, who print Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are a not for profit entity... what you are paying for when you buy the book, is the cost of printing, research, typesetting, editing, distribution etc. and providing a humble income to those involved in the production of the book so they can put food on the table and pay their bills.

In this instance, no one is skimming profit out of the Dhamma, so what is there to complain about?

By all means, donate to Access To Insight, it would certainly be a meritorious deed, but do not over-simplify the economics involved to the point where you're dismissing those who are doing good service to the Dhamma via other media.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mettafuture,

Ah, but if A2I rely on donations (either from users, or self-supported by the owner), it's really not much different to other mechanisms for distributing the Dhamma, is it?
I can't even find the donations page on Access To Insight. Maybe they're not even asking for donations, which makes them all the better, and makes me want to give to them even more.
In other words, there is always a cost involved... whether it be borne by the recipient or the giver.
Rendering a translation of a Pali text into English costs more time than it does money. And to save on printing costs, they could distribute the books electronically.
Wisdom Publications, who print Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are a not for profit entity... what you are paying for when you buy the book, is the cost of printing,
Ebooks can eliminate this step. And, as I pointed out above, all of the Nikayas are already available in epub and kindle format. Why not put those online for half or a third of the cost of the hardcovers?
research
Research by who? The monks who translate the texts? Are they making money from Wisdom Publications?
typesetting, editing
Access To Insight is typeset and edited by 1 man and a handful of volunteers.

If Wisdom Publications needed help with typesetting and editing, I would gladly donate my services, free of charge. I'm sure others would be open to doing the same.
distribution etc.
For the heavy hardcovers, sure, but epub and kindle books can be hosted on mediafire for free.
and providing a humble income to those involved in the production of the book so they can put food on the table and pay their bills.
I understand this point, but something doesn't feel right about seeing a set of the Buddha's discourses with a $60 price tag stamped on it. This doesn't seem very Buddhist to me.
In this instance, no one is skimming profit out of the Dhamma, so what is there to complain about?

By all means, donate to Access To Insight, it would certainly be a meritorious deed, but do not over-simplify the economics involved to the point where you're dismissing those who are doing good service to the Dhamma via other media.
I'm not dismissing anything. It does costs a lot to print and distribute heavy books. What I'm wondering about is why the electronic versions cost almost as much as the hardcovers.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by bodom »

I would rather Wisdoms Teachings of the Buddha series as I prefer Bodhi's translations over Thanissaro's. Also not every sutta is available on A2i and if im ever cross referencing it is real convenient to pick up one the Nikayas and find what I need. Plus having the complete Nikayas just looks oh so sweet sitting on my bookshelf! Cant wait for the Anguttara to complete the set!

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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bodom wrote:I would rather Wisdoms Teachings of the Buddha series as I prefer Bodhi's translations over Thanissaro's.
Same here. But I can't see myself spending $30 or $60 for the word of the Buddha. I'd rather take the time to learn Pali.
Also not every sutta is available on A2i -
True. My copy of In The Buddha's Words makes up for that.
Plus having the complete Nikayas just looks oh so sweet sitting on my bookshelf!
Ereaders have come a long way. The Kindle and Nook are easy on the eyes, lightweight, can last for 2 weeks on a single charge, and can hold hundreds of books.
Last edited by mettafuture on Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mettafuture wrote:My copy of In The Buddha's Words makes up for that.
Just as no translator translates independently of their views (as discussed earlier), compendiums which are hand-selected by translators aren't independent of the translators views either... just something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

Post by mettafuture »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
mettafuture wrote:My copy of In The Buddha's Words makes up for that.
Just as no translator translates independently of their views (as discussed earlier), compendiums which are hand-selected by translators aren't independent of the translators views either... just something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Very true, and I agree.

But I just realized that the suttas I refer to regularly can already be found in the resources I have:
  • DN 31: Sigalovada Sutta
    MN 2: Sabbasava Sutta
    MN 9: Sammaditthi Sutta
    MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
    MN 140: Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta
    and so on...
I have Access To Insight, In The Buddha's Words, and Venerable Analayo's Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization. I think if I were to get a simple mediation manual, and a little personal aid from a teacher, my liberation arsenal will be complete.

I apologize to everyone who helped me in this thread. I really wanted to order a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya. But the more I looked at the price of Majjhima Nikaya, and especially at the price of the Samyutta Nikaya, I just... Ugh...

:jedi:
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Re: Should I buy a copy of the Majjhima Nikaya?

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UPDATE: I noticed that all of these suttas (3, 5, 6, 15, 16, 17, 23, 25, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 37, 38, 40, 42, 46, 47, 48, 50, 51, 55, 56, 64, 65, 67, 68, 69, 71, 73, 76, 77, 79, 80, 81, 83, 84, 85, 88, 89, 91, 92, 94, 96, 98, 99, 100, 102, 103, 104, 112, 113, 114, 115, 120, 123, 124, 127, 128, 129, 130, 132, 133, 134, 139, 142, 144, 145, 150, 151) are missing from Access To Insight's Majjhima Nikaya. That's a LOT more than I thought.

I also came to the realization that having an electronic version of a book as big as the Majjhima Nikaya might not be very practical because of the long time it takes to do an index search on most ereaders. When it comes to dhamma books, I usually refer to the index regularly.

So right now I'm trying to decide on 2 things: Is there anything in these 71 suttas that I could use to improve my understanding of the dhamma, and to enhance the quality of my meditation? Or do these suttas just go over familiar topics in ways I've likely read before?
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