forest tradition , permanent state

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forest tradition , permanent state

Postby effort » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:52 pm

it this talkhttp://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/79/talk/10976/ from 42' to 47' guy Armstrong said that forest tradition believe in a permanent state of mind in the background, really they do? i mean ajahn chah and ajahn sumedho have same opinion?

i remember that i read in e-sangha about your base state of consciousness. something like your temper that you born with that and even when you are sleep, that is there, i dont know the pali word, anybody knows?
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:08 pm

The term you're thinking of is probably Bhavanga Citta, which is a kind of subconscious process that runs whenever active consciousness is not running. It is not a single permanent thing, but a process that constantly arises and passes away.
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby bodom » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:32 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The term you're thinking of is probably Bhavanga Citta, which is a kind of subconscious process that runs whenever active consciousness is not running. It is not a single permanent thing, but a process that constantly arises and passes away.


And, which I might add, a concept not restricted to the Thai Forest tradition alone.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Individual » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:22 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The term you're thinking of is probably Bhavanga Citta, which is a kind of subconscious process that runs whenever active consciousness is not running. It is not a single permanent thing, but a process that constantly arises and passes away.

Why can't this process be referred to as a "single permanent thing," if it is a dhamma (a thing? presumably?), continuous (permanent), and there is only one designated process (single) instead of many? If Bhavanga Citta is impermanent, how does it arise and cease, and what are its components? :)
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby effort » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:27 pm

...but a process that constantly arises and passes away...


every process has a cause, like mind object arising causing thought and as i understand Bhavanga Citta based on karma , and karma not arises and passes away, then how Bhavanga Citta could arises and passes away?
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Individual » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:44 pm

Karma does arise and cease. It's just that for virtually all of us, it does not cease, so we regard as constant. Karma arises in those who regard things as self and permanent; Buddhas and Arahants are free from karma.
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby bodom » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:50 pm

In Vis.M. XIV it is said:

"As soon as rebirth-consciousness (in the embryo at the time of conception) has ceased, there arises a similar subconsciousness with exactly the same object, following immediately upon rebirth-consciousness and being the result of this or that karma (volitional action done in a former birth and remembered there at the moment before death). And again a further similar state of subconsciousness arises. Now, as long as no other consciousness arises to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream, so long the life-stream, like the flow of a river, rises in the same way again and again, even during dreamless sleep and at other times. In this way one has to understand the continuous arising of those states of consciousness in the life-stream."


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby cooran » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:58 pm

Individual wrote:Karma does arise and cease. It's just that for virtually all of us, it does not cease, so we regard as constant. Karma arises in those who regard things as self and permanent; Buddhas and Arahants are free from karma.

Hello Individual,

Could you differentiate between kamma and vipaka - otherwise it can be confusing. Arahants and Buddhas still experience vipaka.

with metta
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:58 pm

"Forest Tradition" is a rather vague term that covers a variety of groups. The Ajahn Chah group happens to be the most well known in the west, but is only one group.

There is a "citta that never dies" concept in the Ajahn Maha Boowa group, which I think may originate with Ajahn Mun. In Ajahn Maha Boowa's teachings he specifically says is non-standard and is a way of expressing his meditation experience.

E.g. see:
http://www.forestdhammabooks.com/book/3 ... ossary.pdf
citta: The citta is the mind’s essential knowing nature, the fundamental quality
of knowing that underlies all sentient existence. When associated with
a physical body, it is referred to as “mind” or “heart”. Being corrupted
by the defiling influence of fundamental ignorance (avijjã), its currents
“flow out” to manifest as feelings (vedanã), memory (saññã), thoughts
(sankhãra), and consciousness (viññãõa), thus embroiling the citta in a
web of self-deception. It is deceived about its own true nature. The true
nature of the citta is that it simply “knows”. There is no subject, no object,
no duality; it simply knows. The citta does not arise or pass away; it is never
born and never dies.
...

Here is a thread on it: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1205

Mike
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Individual » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:39 pm

cooran wrote:
Individual wrote:Karma does arise and cease. It's just that for virtually all of us, it does not cease, so we regard as constant. Karma arises in those who regard things as self and permanent; Buddhas and Arahants are free from karma.

Hello Individual,

Could you differentiate between kamma and vipaka - otherwise it can be confusing. Arahants and Buddhas still experience vipaka.

with metta
Chris

Good point. :)
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Jason » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:23 pm

effort wrote:it this talkhttp://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/79/talk/10976/ from 42' to 47' guy Armstrong said that forest tradition believe in a permanent state of mind in the background, really they do? i mean ajahn chah and ajahn sumedho have same opinion?

i remember that i read in e-sangha about your base state of consciousness. something like your temper that you born with that and even when you are sleep, that is there, i dont know the pali word, anybody knows?


From what I've read, there are certain teachers in the Thai Forest Tradition who maintain the presence of knowing in the transcendent state (anidassana-vinnana) that doesn't cease; and this position is in direct contrast to the 'orthodox' position, which describes nibbana as the ending of all consciousness, all awareness.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby kirk5a » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:15 am

Jason wrote: the 'orthodox' position, which describes nibbana as the ending of all consciousness, all awareness.

Can you provide a sutta which states that? Thanks.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:20 am

kirk5a wrote:
Jason wrote: the 'orthodox' position, which describes nibbana as the ending of all consciousness, all awareness.

Can you provide a sutta which states that? Thanks.

The suttas are subject to interpretation and are not always explicit without an interpretation. By the "orthodox position," I think he means Mahavihara commentaries, such as the Visuddhimagga. It would be better to ask him for a citation from those texts rather than the suttas. :)
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby kirk5a » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:20 am

Individual wrote:The suttas are subject to interpretation and are not always explicit without an interpretation. By the "orthodox position," I think he means Mahavihara commentaries, such as the Visuddhimagga. It would be better to ask him for a citation from those texts rather than the suttas. :)

Okay. I'd be interested in that too.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:48 am

As a student of chan this all sounds very familiar to me. I was reading Ajahn Chah recently and he refers to the "one who knows"

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Opening_Dhamma_Eye1.php

Compare this notion to the ideas in this talk from upaya zen center http://www.upaya.org/dharma/people-do-not-die/

Is Ajahn Chah zen or theravadan? Or is it just that the roads meet at this point?
"Even if you've read the whole Canon and can remember lots of teachings; even if you can explain them in poignant ways, with lots of people to respect you; even if you build a lot of monastery buildings, or can explain inconstancy, stress, and not-self in the most detailed fashion ... The only thing that serves your own true purpose is release from suffering.

"And you'll be able to gain release from suffering only when you know the one mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby darvki » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:41 am

More from the above talk by Ajahn Chah:

***

"As he sat mindfully listening to the Buddha's discourse, Buddha-nature arose in him."

"When the mind is Dhamma, it stops. It has attained peace. There's no longer a need to do anything special, because the mind is Dhamma already. The outside is Dhamma, the inside is Dhamma. The 'one who knows' is Dhamma. The state is Dhamma and that which knows the state is Dhamma. It is one. It is free.

This nature is not born, it does not age nor sicken. This nature does not die."


***

He's was obviously Theravadan and not a Zen practitioner, but as is apparent he enjoyed using similar language in his teachings.
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Jason » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:29 am

kirk5a wrote:
Jason wrote: the 'orthodox' position, which describes nibbana as the ending of all consciousness, all awareness.

Can you provide a sutta which states that? Thanks.


This line from DN 11 is often interpreted that way:

    Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.

For more of my thoughts on this, see this and this.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Jason » Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:34 am

Individual wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Jason wrote: the 'orthodox' position, which describes nibbana as the ending of all consciousness, all awareness.

Can you provide a sutta which states that? Thanks.

The suttas are subject to interpretation and are not always explicit without an interpretation. By the "orthodox position," I think he means Mahavihara commentaries, such as the Visuddhimagga. It would be better to ask him for a citation from those texts rather than the suttas. :)


Yes, by 'orthodox,' I meant what some consider 'classical' Theravada in which the enitre Tipitaka and its commentaries are considered authoritative.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby kirk5a » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:34 am

Jason wrote:For more of my thoughts on this, see this and this.

I think you did a great job even-handedly exploring the issue in your blog posts, thanks!
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Hanzze » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:11 am

Buddhist Psychology

One day, a famous woman lecturer on Buddhist metaphysics came to see Achaan Chan. This woman gave periodic teachings in Bangkok on the abhidhamma and complex Buddhist psychology. In talking to Achaan Chah, she detailed how important it was for people to understand Buddhist psychology and how much her students benefited from their study with her. She asked him whether he agreed with the importance of such understanding.
"Yes, very important", he agreed.
Delighted, she further questioned whether he had his own students learn abhidhamma.
"Oh, yes, of course."
And where, she asked, did he recommend they start, which books and studies were best?
"Only here," he said, pointing to his heart, "only here."
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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