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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering? - Dhamma Wheel

Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:37 am

[ NOTE: Split from viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6353 ]

Greetings,

Regarding whether arahants experience vipaka or not...

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."
S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41

Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:51 am

Hi retro

Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:55 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:20 am

Hello Retro,

From the Suttas:
MN 86 Angulimala Sutta: About Angulimala

Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:24 am

Greetings Cooran,

I can respond, but I would need to split this Angulimala side-line into a new topic in order to do so.

Please advise if you would like me to do that (although if you don't feel like it, you'll find the answer in the bolded word "would" - i.e. would have, if you weren't now an arahant, but since you are, it won't... and also in remembering that vipaka is mental, as explained by ven. Nyanaponika in his Buddhist Dictionary, and that clods aren't mental)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:33 am

Hello Retro,

Yes, I'd be interested in further discussion.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:37 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:01 am

Hello Retro,

Vipaka doesn't mean suffering. Vipaka is the result of action (kamma).

I’m interested in what the Buddha said and meant here ‘’ Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]

If there is no physical feeling associated with vipaka (the results of kamma) for an Arahant, – why is he telling Angulimala to ‘bear with it!’ and consoling him that the alternative to what he is experiencing now would have been burning in hell for thousands of years.

My understanding is that even the Buddha and the arahants have pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings because of contact with sense-objects. They feel pain that arises from physical affliction but they do not suffer mentally, nor do they take delight in pleasant sensations.

Not suffering mentally doesn’t mean there is no vipaka. Nor does it mean they don’t experience physical sensations.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:22 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:02 am

The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:06 am

Hmm. A logical question just came to me: If past rebirths are innumerable and an Arahant must exhaust his old karma before entering parinibbana, would his old karma (and therefore continually arising vipakas) not also be innumerable? :)
The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:09 am

Arahat make no new kamma. The vipaka or fruit of old kamma is still experienced until parinibanna; however, there is always mental ease for the Arahant even if stoned or hit because there is no aversion or attachment present.

Kevin


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:13 am

Last edited by Virgo on Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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cooran
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:38 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:56 am


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:12 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:22 am

The best things in life aren't things.



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