Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:but I don't understand why the actual experience itself couldn't be seen as being vipaka.

Because any explanation for what happened to Angulimala ventures away from "loka" into the "outside world"..... and most disturbingly in my mind, the inference that Angulimala's kamma was the proximite cause for the kamma of his attackers, thereby absolving them of responsibility for their own actions, introducing a 'ground hog day' scenario where in the future someone will have to punish them for throwing clods, and someone will have to punish them and so on. Within the context of the Dhamma there is no need to speculatively believe such things, and it's actually detrimental to the notions of personal accountability and responsibility for one's own (spiritual) development.

Ah now I'm getting it. The example "hit by clods" was just an example. In fact I don't consider the locals who threw clods and sticks at Angulimala and that incident actually as vipaka. This is as you said a projection of the type the Buddha warned against, which I totally agree. If one examines the Angulimala Sutta closely, one can find out that the Buddha isn't actually saying that the incident with the locals is the fruit of Angulimalas action. The Buddha just says that what Angulimala experiences - whatever this may be in that particular moment - that this experience is the fruit of kamma. This is in my eyes very important. One can easily interpret the sutta in a way thinking an angry mob of locals is the fruit of action. That's why I was speaking about Anglumalas experience being vipaka, not that he has been hit by clods and stuff.
retrofuturist wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:The example I would provide would of course be Angulimala again. Whatever he was experiencing, the Buddha told him it is the fruit of action he is experiencing in the here&now.

Since such an explanation involves reaching outside of loka/sabba, it is venturing into the realm of the "conventional" loka.... thus his explanation is a conventional one, rather than a precise one, framed in terms of aggregates, senses etc.
There's no need to describe Angulimalas experience, which would again be a projection of the type the Buddha warned against as you already pointed out.
retrofuturist wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:According to my understanding an experience is nāmarūpa and viññāna or the pañcakhandhā (in case of the arahant), which then IMHO have to comprise some kind of non-mental vipaka to some extent. Rūpa obviously isn't mental.
Yeah, don't get too hung up on the mental bit though....
Okay, it doesn't matter very much anyway...
retrofuturist wrote:What ven. Nyantiloka and and the Kathavatthu are calling "mental", you might call "nama", and understand differently to them. Which raises an interesting question... if you acknowledge the ontological physicality of the body, how to do "experience" it other than via the sabba of the six consciousnesses?
I have problems with the meaning of "ontological", do you want to know if I acknowledge a physicality of the body beyond the experience of the body via the sabba of the six consciousnesses? All I know about the physicality of the body is what is experienced by means of the six senses.
retrofuturist wrote:Not sure if you saw the edit to the earlier post, but thank you for engaging in discussion!

Don't know, which one? You're very welcome, I too thank you for this beneficial conversation.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:22 am

Greetings Acinteyyo,

The Buddha just says that what Angulimala experiences - whatever this may be in that particular moment - that this experience is the fruit of kamma. This is in my eyes very important.... There's no need to describe Angulimalas experience, which would again be a projection of the type the Buddha warned against as you already pointed out.

Agreed. The inference that he is actually suffering is just that... an inference. Understanding his mindstates at the time would be speculative since we are not him.

One can easily interpret the sutta in a way thinking an angry mob of locals is the fruit of action. That's why I was speaking about Anglumalas experience being vipaka, not that he has been hit by clods and stuff.

Gotcha. And from my point of view (and I stress it's my POV since as this topic shows, my POV often differs to others in relation to kamma and vipaka), your understanding is good. The only change I would make is to say that "Angulimala's experience" is "Angulimala's experience" - just that. Inferring that his experience was vipaka (which as per the colour coded SN 12.15 quotation earlier), would be akin to inferring that dependent origination is still applicable to an arahant, and we agree that it is not. Dependent origination and any formations have collapsed with the attainment of arahathood.

All I know about the physicality of the body is what is experienced by means of the six senses.

Good answer. :thumbsup:

Now, for a follow-up question using a slightly different frame of reference...

What do you know about the physicality of the body beyond what is experienced by means of the four remaining aggregates of feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), formations (sankhara) and consciousness (vinnana)?

Metta,
Retro. :)

P.S. Yes, it's been a good discussion... it's a shame some of our "readers" appear to have left the room.
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:08 am

Greetings,

Something to think about in the context of kamma and vipaka...

SN 22.100: Gaddula Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "Monks, from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.

"It's just as when a dog is tied by a leash to a post or stake: If it walks, it walks right around that post or stake. If it stands, it stands right next to that post or stake. If it sits, it sits right next to that post or stake. If it lies down, it lies down right next to that post or stake.

"In the same way, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person regards form as: 'This is mine, this is my self, this is what I am.' He regards feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as: 'This is mine, this is my self, this is what I am.' If he walks, he walks right around these five clinging-aggregates. If he stands, he stands right next to these five clinging-aggregates. If he sits, he sits right next to these five clinging-aggregates. If he lies down, he lies down right next to these five clinging-aggregates. Thus one should reflect on one's mind with every moment: 'For a long time has this mind been defiled by passion, aversion, & delusion.' From the defilement of the mind are beings defiled. From the purification of the mind are beings purified.

"Monks, have you ever seen a moving contraption?"

"Yes, lord."

"That moving contraption was created by the mind. And this mind is even more variegated than a moving contraption. Thus one should reflect on one's mind with every moment: 'For a long time has this mind been defiled by passion, aversion, & delusion.' From the defilement of the mind are beings defiled. From the purification of the mind are beings purified.

"Monks, I can imagine no one group of beings more variegated than that of common animals. Common animals are created by mind. And the mind is even more variegated than common animals. Thus one should reflect on one's mind with every moment: 'For a long time has this mind been defiled by passion, aversion, & delusion.' From the defilement of the mind are beings defiled. From the purification of the mind are beings purified.

"It's just as when — there being dye, lac, yellow orpiment, indigo, or crimson — a dyer or painter would paint the picture of a woman or a man, complete in all its parts, on a well-polished panel or wall, or on a piece of cloth; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, when creating, creates nothing but form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness.

"Now what do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."...

"What do you think, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

Do arahants discard vipaka? Do arahants discard suffering?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:Do arahants discard vipaka? Do arahants discard suffering?
These are not necessarily equivalent terms.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:25 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Do arahants discard vipaka? Do arahants discard suffering?
These are not necessarily equivalent terms.

1... I responded to this last time you raised this objection - viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6382&start=80#p125534
2... I asked them as two separate questions, to forestall a repeat of your objection

Do you care to explain why this distinction is of such importance, in your mind? Perhaps that might provide a useful contribution to the discussion. Knowing you, I know you're not just being pedantic for the sake of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Do arahants discard vipaka? Do arahants discard suffering?
These are not necessarily equivalent terms.

1... I responded to this last time you raised this objection - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p125534
2... I asked them as two separate questions, to forestall a repeat of your objection

Do you care to explain why this distinction is of such importance, in your mind? Perhaps that might provide a useful contribution to the discussion. Knowing you, I know you're not just being pedantic for the sake of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
You seem to be drawing an equivalency between the two terms. While the arahant may no longer have dukkha, that does not mean that there is no longer conditioning at play in the arahant mind/body process. There is simply no longer conditioning based upon greed, hatred, and delusion. Also, there is nothing that says that conditioning from old choices will not at play in the mind/body process. Also, all vipaka is not dukkha.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:51 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:You seem to be drawing an equivalency between the two terms.

No... no more than one might regard craving and dukkha, for example. One entails the other, but they are not identical in meaning.

tiltbillings wrote:While the arahant may no longer have dukkha, that does not mean that there is no longer conditioning at play in the arahant mind/body process. There is simply no longer conditioning based upon greed, hatred, and delusion.

What other kind of conditioning (sankhara-ing?) is there in the Dhamma? Do you have a sutta example we could refer to of "conditioning", outside of these things?

tiltbillings wrote:Also, there is nothing that says that conditioning from old choices will not at play in the mind/body process.

Well, there is of course SN 12.15, but it depends on what you mean by "mind/body process" and whether you regard it as synonymous to nama-rupa. If you're putting that forward as an argument though, there might be some onus on you to define what could carry or sustain this conditioning, to enable to it to bear fruit post-arahantship.

tiltbillings wrote:Also, all vipaka is not dukkha.

How do you resolve that with "sabbe sankhara dukkha"? Is vipaka not formed/conditioned (by ignorance)?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Also, all vipaka is not dukkha.

How do you resolve that with "sabbe sankhara dukkha"? Is vipaka not formed/conditioned (by ignorance)?
So, is the cultivation of vipassana, jhana, metta, the bojjhangas dukkha? The would all be the results of cetana, choices made.

Does an arahant choose to do anything?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:36 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, is the cultivation of vipassana, jhana, metta, the bojjhangas dukkha? The would all be the results of cetana, choices made.

It would depend on whether the cetana in question was conditioned by ignorance, because if so, it is sankhara and "sabbe sankhara dukkha". It's worth point out though jhana involves a stilling/tranquilization of formations, so the pleasure associated with jhana is attributable to that very subsiding of thinking mind. What is it you say... one more thing to let go of?

tiltbillings wrote:Does an arahant choose to do anything?

An arahant's choices and thinking are not rooted in ignorance, so are not sankhara. Thus "sabbe sankhara dukkha" does not apply. Abhidhamma terms them "kiriya" (or functional) citta, and as I understand it, kiriya citta are not associated with dukkha, but are not blissful in the way jhanic mindstates are. Not being an arahant though, I can't confirm that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, is the cultivation of vipassana, jhana, metta, the bojjhangas dukkha? The would all be the results of cetana, choices made.

It would depend on whether the cetana in question was conditioned by ignorance, because if so, it is sankhara and "sabbe sankhara dukkha". It's worth point out though jhana involves a stilling/tranquilization of formations, so the pleasure associated with jhana is attributable to that very subsiding of thinking mind. What is it you say... one more thing to let go of?
However, it is something arahants who developed jhana can do and do, and there would be no reason to assume that an arahant could not develop higher jhana, or choose to learn something new.

tiltbillings wrote:Does an arahant choose to do anything?

An arahant's choices and thinking are not rooted in ignorance, so are not sankhara. Thus "sabbe sankhara dukkha" does not apply. Abhidhamma terms them "kiriya" (or functional) citta, and as I understand it, kiriya citta are not associated with dukkha, but are not blissful in the way jhanic mindstates are. Not being an arahant though, I can't confirm that./quote]The point is that the conditioning preceeding awakeing just does not go away; rather, one is no longer identified with it, but it is still there and functions, unless you are saying that arahants do not have personalities, memories, learned skills, and other such things based upon choices made.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:52 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:However, it is something arahants who developed jhana can do and do, and there would be no reason to assume that an arahant could not develop higher jhana, or choose to learn something new.

Sure, as I said in the above posting, kiriya citta aren't necessarily blissful in the way higher jhanic states (devoid of both vijja/avijja cognitions) are so why not enjoy a blameless abiding in jhana? Thus have I heard...

tiltbillings wrote:The point is that the conditioning preceeding awakeing just does not go away; rather, one is no longer identified with it, but it is still there and functions, unless you are saying that arahants do not have personalities, memories, learned skills, and other such things based upon choices made.

To ensure we're on the same page, and are speaking precisely on matters which require precision, what Pali word are you referring to when you speak of "conditioning". There is nothing inherently avijja about humourousness, quietness, loudness, memories, skills and such, so those things do not need to be destroyed - only avijja and its concomitant results are destroyed... an arahant who has eradicated avijja sees things as they really are. For example, take a memory that would be disturbing to a putthujana... an arahant would know it to be mind-consciousness and not be deluded by its magic show.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:However, it is something arahants who developed jhana can do and do, and there would be no reason to assume that an arahant could not develop higher jhana, or choose to learn something new.

Sure, as I said in the above posting, kiriya citta aren't necessarily blissful in the way higher jhanic states (devoid of both vijja/avijja cognitions) are so why not enjoy a blameless abiding in jhana? Thus have I heard...

tiltbillings wrote:The point is that the conditioning preceeding awakeing just does not go away; rather, one is no longer identified with it, but it is still there and functions, unless you are saying that arahants do not have personalities, memories, learned skills, and other such things based upon choices made.

To ensure we're on the same page, and are speaking precisely on matters which require precision, what Pali word are you referring to when you speak of "conditioning". There is nothing inherently avijja about humourousness, quietness, loudness, memories, skills and such, so those things do not need to be destroyed - only avijja and its concominant results are destroyed... an arahant who has eradicated avijja sees things as they really are. For example, take a memory that would be disturbing to a putthujana... an arahant would know it to be mind-consciousness and not be deluded by its magic show.

Metta,
Retro. :)
So, there is vipaka for the arahant.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:58 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, there is vipaka for the arahant.

No, "avijja and its concomitant results" includes all of the dependent origination sequence... thus including sankharas and their results.

Again, to ensure we're on the same page, and are speaking precisely on matters which require precision, what Pali word are you referring to when you speak of "conditioning"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, there is vipaka for the arahant.

No, "avijja and its concomitant results" includes all of the dependent origination sequence... thus including sankharas and their results.
So, when an arahant sees something, there is no "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." Something else is happening.

Again, to ensure we're on the same page, and are speaking precisely on matters which require precision, what Pali word are you referring to when you speak of "conditioning"?
Damdifino. What Pali word are you thinkng of?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:29 am

Greetings Tilt,

So, when an arahant sees something, there is no "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." Something else is happening.

Yes, something else is happening. "So long as there is avijjā, all things (dhammā) are fundamentally as described in the earlier part of the Mūlapariyāyasutta (MN 1); that is to say, they are inherently in subjection, they are appropriated, they are mine. This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that things are in contact with me. This contact between me and things is phassa." Thus, the quotation in question does not pertain to an arahant.

Damdifino. What Pali word are you thinkng of?

My thoughts are that you're possibly taking an English translation of the word sankhara (there are many of them...) and running with it, complete with all its English connotations, and then retrofitting it back into the Dhamma complete with the English language baggage. If you knew the Pali word, we could jettison any English baggage associated with the translated word.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

So, when an arahant sees something, there is no "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." Something else is happening.

Yes, something else is happening. "So long as there is avijjā, all things (dhammā) are fundamentally as described in the earlier part of the Mūlapariyāyasutta (MN 1); that is to say, they are inherently in subjection, they are appropriated, they are mine. This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that things are in contact with me This contact between me and things is phassa."
"Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." is paticcasamuppada.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:33 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." is paticcasamuppada.

By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant.

I'm still trying to work out what your argument (positively framed) is. All I'm seeing is disgruntled pokes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote: "Dependent on the eye and the forms, eye-consciousness arises; the coming-together of the three is sense-impression." is paticcasamuppada.

By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant.
So, for the arahant, she sees by a differnt process.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:38 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant. So, for the arahant, she sees by a differnt process.

Eye-consciousness unaccompanied by avijja.

(No phassa... phassa would be constructing/forming in the way the Buddha advised Bahiya against, i.e. taking eye-consciousness in subjection).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:By which you confirm what I'm saying about it not applying to an arahant.
So, for the arahant, she sees by a differnt process.

Eye-consciousness unaccompanied by avijja.

(No phassa... phassa would be constructing/forming in the way the Buddha advised Bahiya against).
phassa, contact, is 'sense-impression', contact. Of course there is phassa. If there were none, then the arahant would not be able recongnize a thing by its marks, saññā. In other words, there would be no memory.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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