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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cooran
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:15 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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cooran
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:15 am

Hello all,

With regard to vipaka from past actions (kamma) being experienced by fully enlightened Arahants, the death of MahaMogallana who, with Sariputta, was one of the two Chief Disciples of the Buddha is a case in point.

''The Awakened One, surrounded by many of his monks, passed away peacefully during a meditative absorption which he entered with perfect mastery. Sariputta's death in his parental home, likewise with fellow monks in attendance, was similarly serene, though, unlike the Buddha, he had been ill before his end. Ananda died at the age of 120, before which he entered with meditative skill the fire element so that his body vanished in a blaze, as he did not wish to burden anyone by his funeral.

Considering the serene death of the Master and these two disciples, one would have expected that, in the case of Maha-Moggallana too, the final dissolution of the body at death would take place in external circumstance of a similarly peaceful nature. But in Moggallana's case it was very different, though the gruesome nature of his death did not shake his firm and serene mind.

He passed away a fortnight after his friend Sariputta, namely on the new-moon day of the month Kattika (October/November), in the autumn. The Great Decease of the Buddha took place in the full-moon night of the month Vesakha (May), that is half a year after the death of his two chief disciples. The Buddha was in his 80th year when he passed away, while both Sariputta and Maha-Moggallana died at 84.

These were the circumstances of Moggallana's death.

After the death of Nathaputta, the leader of the ascetic Order of the Jains (Jinas),[10] there arose among his followers bitter contentions about his teaching, and consequently there was a loss of devoted adherents and of support. The Jains had also learned what Moggallana reported from his celestial travels: that virtuous devotees of the Buddha were seen to have a heavenly rebirth while followers of other sects lacking moral conduct, had fallen into miserable, sub-human states of existence. This, too, contributed to the decline in the reputation of other sects, including the Jains.

Particularly the very lowest type of Jains in Magadha were so enraged about that loss of public esteem and support that they wanted to get rid of Moggallana. Without investigating the causes in themselves, they projected blame externally and concentrated their envy and hate on Maha-Moggallana. Hesitating to commit a murder themselves, they conceived another plan. Even in those days there were professional criminals ready to do a killing for payment. There are always unscrupulous men willing to do anything for money. So some evil-minded Jains hired such a gang and ordered them to kill Moggallana.

At that time, Maha-Moggallana lived alone in a forest hut at Kalasila. After his encounter with Mara he knew that the end of his days was near. Having enjoyed the bliss of liberation, he now felt the body to be just an obstruction and burden. Hence he had no desire to make use of his faculties and keep the body alive for the rest of the aeon. Yet, when he saw the brigands approaching, he just absented himself by using his supernormal powers. The gangsters arrived at an empty hut, and though they searched everywhere, could not find him. They left disappointed, but returned on the following day. On six consecutive days Moggallana escaped from them in the same way. His motivation was not the protection of his own body, but saving the brigands from the fearsome karmic consequences of such a murderous deed, necessarily leading to rebirth in the hells. He wanted to spare them such a fate by giving them time to reconsider and abstain from their crime. But their greed for the promised money was so great that they persisted and returned even on the seventh day. Then their persistence was "rewarded," for on that seventh day Moggallana suddenly lost the magic control over his body. A heinous deed committed in days long past (by causing the death of his own parents) had not yet been expiated, and the ripening of that old Kamma confronted him now, just as others are suddenly confronted by a grave illness. Moggallana realized that he was now unable to escape. The brigands entered, knocked him down, smashed all his limbs and left him lying in his blood. Being keen on quickly getting their reward and also somewhat ill as ease about their dastardly deed, the brigands left at once, without a further look.

But Moggallana's great physical and mental strength was such that his vital energies had not yet succumbed. He regained consciousness and was able to drag himself to the Buddha. There, in the Master's presence, at the holiest place of the world, at the source of the deepest peace, Moggallana breathed his last (Jat. 522E). The inner peace in which he dwelt since he attained to sainthood, never left him. It did not leave him even in the last seven days of his life, which had been so turbulent. But even the threat of doom was only external. This is the way of those who are finally "healed" and holy and are in control of the mind. Whatever Kamma of the past had been able to produce a result in his present life, nevertheless, it could affect only his body, but no longer "him," because "he" no longer identified himself with anything existing only impermanently. This last episode of Moggallana's life, however, showed that the law of moral causality (Kamma) has even greater power than the supernormal feats of this master of magic. Only a Buddha can control the karmic consequences acting upon his body to such an extent that nothing might cause his premature death.

Sariputta and Maha-Moggallana were such wonderful disciples that the Buddha said the assembly of monks appeared empty to him after their death. It was marvelous he said, that such an excellent pair of disciples existed. But it was marvelous, too, that, in spite of their excellence, there was no grief, no lamentation on the part of the Master, when the two had passed away.[11]

Therefore, inspired by the greatness of the two chief disciples, may a dedicated follower of the Dhamma strive to be his own island of refuge, have the Dhamma as his island of refuge, not looking for any other refuge, having in it the powerful help of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (Satipatthana)! Those who are thus filled with keen desire to train themselves in walking on the Noble Eightfold Path, they will certainly pass beyond the realms of darkness which abound in Samsara. So the Master assures.[12]''
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el263.html

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:23 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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cooran
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:39 am

Hello Retro,

Please don't sidetrack into issues about the Jatakas - which are legendary Stories of the Past Lives of the Buddha.

The historical circumstances surrounding the death of MahaMogallana are accepted by the whole Theravada Tradition.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:49 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:21 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:37 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:51 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:20 am

Hi Retro,

You seem to be ignoring Ven Nananada's Sutta quote and commentary that states that that Arahants still experience vedena.

Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:22 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:45 pm

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:10 pm

I love pondering mad things like this. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:24 pm



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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:39 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:53 pm



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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:06 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:17 pm



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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:28 pm

The best things in life aren't things.



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