Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

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Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby dhamma_disciple » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:36 am

My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?

or is there some mechanism to prevent such...
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Virgo » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:41 am

dhamma_disciple wrote:My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?


Yep.

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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Kim OHara » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:01 am

It's also possible for a person to win first prize in the lottery in two consecutive weeks, but it's not very likely.
If we can be reborn as any kind of creature in any of thousands of worlds, as we are told, the chance of two closely related people being reborn at similar times and places - and the same species! - must be infinitesimal.
Not worth worrying about, in fact.
:namaste:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Virgo » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:30 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:It's also possible for a person to win first prize in the lottery in two consecutive weeks, but it's not very likely.
If we can be reborn as any kind of creature in any of thousands of worlds, as we are told, the chance of two closely related people being reborn at similar times and places - and the same species! - must be infinitesimal.
Not worth worrying about, in fact.
:namaste:
Kim

Actually I disagree. There are many cases in the Suttas where people are born into the same households and so on. Sometimes we have very strong kammic connections with people that only play themselves out over a number of lifetimes, as weird as that may sound.

This is where tibetan Buddhists get the idea that the disciple is always born near the guru and so on.

Best,

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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby cooran » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:29 am

Hello Kevin,

Please link us to these 'many suttas'. This would be interesting. However, it may be that they are in the Jataka Tales - of which, as you know, the Tales themselves are not canonical ... only the verses are.

I only know of the husband and wife mentioned in the sutta who asked the Buddha how they could be born together in the next life.

AN 4.55 Samajivina Sutta: Living in Tune
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby khlawng » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:48 am

dhamma_disciple wrote:My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?

or is there some mechanism to prevent such...


I would say acinteyya; incomprehensible, not to be dwelled into, unprofitable. :anjali:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:50 am

Hi Chris,
cooran wrote: ...
Please link us to these 'many suttas'. This would be interesting. However, it may be that they are in the Jataka Tales - of which, as you know, the Tales themselves are not canonical ... only the verses are.


Yes, I don't recall any Suttas which discussed specifics about who was related to whom. Those specifics are found in the Commentaries (such as Bahiya and various associates and their encounters with cows http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2350#p32931)

The following Sutta is relevant to this discussion, but only deals in generalities.

SN 15.14-19 Mata Sutta: Mother
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

:anjali:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby cooran » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:06 am

Thanks Mike! :smile:

with metta
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Aloka » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:10 am

dhamma_disciple wrote:My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?

or is there some mechanism to prevent such...


I think this sutta may have already been refered to by khlawng:

AN 4.77 - Acintita Sutta : Unconjecturable

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby dhamma_disciple » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:55 am

wow thanks all,

seems to me that thus far no where was there a denial,
nor was there concrete specifications neither...

indeed...I realise
does seem to be an unprofitable contemplation...
does seem to bring about vexation
does bring about a perturbed mind
does distract from the proper aim...
doesn't seem fruitful to ultimately know either,
indeed indeed...

i shall relay the unconjecturable sutta to my friend as well...

humble thanks
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:06 am

Greetings DD,

dhamma_disciple wrote:indeed...I realise
does seem to be an unprofitable contemplation...
does seem to bring about vexation
does bring about a perturbed mind
does distract from the proper aim...
doesn't seem fruitful to ultimately know either,
indeed indeed...

:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:08 am

Hi Dhamma_Disciple,
dhamma_disciple wrote:seems to me that thus far no where was there a denial,
nor was there concrete specifications neither...

I thought that:
A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

was fairly clear, if you take it literally.

:anjali:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:40 am

Ah.....now I'm relieved.

2 members here have frequently accused me of having "Hindu beliefs", but I didn't claim anything but the above... :namaste:

Oh, happy day. :smile:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:49 am

Hi Anna,

Perhaps it depends on how you approach it. The sutta I quoted is not specific: the time of samsara is so enormous that such-and-such must have happened in general terms. There are a whole bunch of related suttas of a similar pattern: the amount of blood that has been spilled, and so on.

The sutta that Aloka quoted warns against speculating about specifics of who was who in particular lives...

The "beginning-less samsara" suttas, I think, are designed to motivate us by putting our problems into some sort of "cosmic" perspective, not to encourage speculation.

:anjali:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby dhamma_disciple » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:09 am

Hi Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dhamma_Disciple,
dhamma_disciple wrote:seems to me that thus far no where was there a denial,
nor was there concrete specifications neither...

I thought that:
A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

was fairly clear, if you take it literally.

:anjali:
Mike


I felt your "find" was definitely helpful and very adequate answer for me.
Even though my original question (in my mind) had been quite specific to spouse. so thank you.

What it spoke to me was along the lines of:
Upon having affinity with those in our lives, do not be so surprised if,
they have been a previous mother, father, sibling, relative, etc and possibility spouse...

But maybe I feel to should stop here as the unconjecture sutta jolted me to abandon any further speculation me and my friend had seem to be trapping ourselves in.

Kind Regards,
DD
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:13 am

Hi Anna,

Perhaps it depends on how you approach it. The sutta I quoted is not specific: the time of samsara is so enormous that such-and-such must have happened in general terms. There are a whole bunch of related suttas of a similar pattern: the amount of blood that has been spilled, and so on.

The sutta that Aloka quoted warns against speculating about specifics of who was who in particular lives...

The "beginning-less samsara" suttas, I think, are designed to motivate us by putting our problems into some sort of "cosmic" perspective, not to encourage speculation.


Hi, Mike, thank you, actually, I had only quoted the Buddha, MN 135, as an example, but of course, the context was another.
It was a rebirth thread...

I never speculate then about 'who was who', other than, what you quoted. :smile:


with metta,

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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:23 am

Hi DD,
dhamma_disciple wrote:I felt your "find" was definitely helpful and very adequate answer for me.
Even though my original question (in my mind) had been quite specific to spouse. so thank you.

What it spoke to me was along the lines of:
Upon having affinity with those in our lives, do not be so surprised if,
they have been a previous mother, father, sibling, relative, etc and possibility spouse...

But maybe I feel to should stop here as the unconjecture sutta jolted me to abandon any further speculation me and my friend had seem to be trapping ourselves in.

Yes, I think that the specific relationships would be in the speculation basket...

Thank you for raising some interesting points!

:anjali:
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby Individual » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:56 pm

And your dog too :lol:
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby phil » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DD,

dhamma_disciple wrote:indeed...I realise
does seem to be an unprofitable contemplation...
does seem to bring about vexation
does bring about a perturbed mind
does distract from the proper aim...
doesn't seem fruitful to ultimately know either,
indeed indeed...

:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)


I have never thumbed up a thumbs up but I will now.

:twothumbsup:

It seems these kind of questions about kamma and rebirth are what prevent 99% of people who have the fortunate opportunity to be born in the human realm and hear about Buddhism from getting anywhere past the front door.
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Postby unspoken » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:08 pm

Virgo wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:It's also possible for a person to win first prize in the lottery in two consecutive weeks, but it's not very likely.
If we can be reborn as any kind of creature in any of thousands of worlds, as we are told, the chance of two closely related people being reborn at similar times and places - and the same species! - must be infinitesimal.
Not worth worrying about, in fact.
:namaste:
Kim

Actually I disagree. There are many cases in the Suttas where people are born into the same households and so on. Sometimes we have very strong kammic connections with people that only play themselves out over a number of lifetimes, as weird as that may sound.




Kevin, Sutta is something that record the teachings of Buddha, and do not forget, most of the people in that era is not so corrupted like now. They have a more simple and pure mind not like now. So, there's a chance of getting into the same household, and some getting together after a very long rebirth. Depends.

With Metta
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