How to overcome love of debate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Fede » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:40 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:My priority isn't to baby others, nor be the nice guy 100% of the time. I'm not a people pleaser, I try to tell it like it is.

Telling it like it is is always possible, but so is doing it skilfully. So by all means be frank and direct, but do it Mindfully and with Compassion. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?


You can't really be kind if you are being unwise or allowing others to be unwise, or at its most egregious allow them to hurt themselves and others.

You cannot allow, or control anything, other than what passes through your mind or what passes through your lips, regarding debate, specifically. Those are the only things you have any allowable measure over.

The problem is that sometimes to give the right or wise answer means people are not going to like it, nor want to hear it in the first place.

If it is done with Right View, Right Intention and Right Speech, then that is their problem, not yours. If you have skilfully used Wisdom and Compassion to impart your opinion, then there is no more you can engineer, on their part.

This often happens regardless of whether they're the person asking about it in the first place! That's when I recognize, hm, whoops this is not a debate. So and so just wants support for their already existing opinion. :?

Sometimes, Right Speech consists of closing your yap.


That's where my wisdom tells me I should stop, but I don't. I get mad because I wonder why talk they asked about it in the first place if they didn't want to hear the truth?

Then that is a fault, vice, or unskilful aspect of your own debating technique you need to address, change and improve.
Don't blame someone else's actions for you getting mad. It's not their fault you cannot control your temper.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:11 am

Awesome, so I've gotten to the root of it, thank you Fede. That's incredibly helpful I suppose the root of this situation is an inner aversion I have yet to fix. I'll do some contemplation and try harder to address the root of the problem. :goodpost:
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:41 am

The difficult part will be, -to walk the talk.

Action speaks louder than words...
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Anicca » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:38 pm

Fede wrote:Sometimes, Right Speech consists of closing your yap.

From Ven. Thanissaro - Noble Conversation
The first passage included here, in addition to listing the ten ideal topics, also lists topics that monks and serious meditators should avoid, ranging from politics and food to theories about the creation of the world.

Ouch! I am guilty - guilty - guilty!

From AN 10.69 Kathavatthu Sutta: Topics of Conversation
"Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."
"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation

Much to learn about "closing the yap".

Thank you , Fede!

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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:49 pm

I'm a little amused that more people seem to be impressed by a 'close the yap' than by how the Buddha said it. ;)


"It is spoken at the right time."


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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:56 pm

Annapurna wrote:I'm a little amused that more people seem to be impressed by a 'close the yap' than by how the Buddha said it. ;)


Well, when I talk to my three-year old, he doesn't listen when I tell him that he needs to use Right Speech and speak at the right time. But "quit your yapping" seems to be effective. :)
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:31 pm

But people here are 3+... ;)
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Individual » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:56 pm

Also, there's nothing wrong with loving debate. The Buddha loved debate too.

Just don't get carried away by it or obsessed with it.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:24 pm

If it is a good discussion, and not an argument, why not.
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Individual » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:48 pm

Annapurna wrote:If it is a good discussion, and not an argument, why not.

:namaste:
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Fede » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:57 pm

Annapurna wrote:But people here are 3+... ;)


Look upon it as 'telling it like it is' Anna... you know.... ;)
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby octathlon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:40 pm

Anicca wrote:From Ven. Thanissaro - Noble Conversation
The first passage included here, in addition to listing the ten ideal topics, also lists topics that monks and serious meditators should avoid, ranging from politics and food to theories about the creation of the world.

Ouch! I am guilty - guilty - guilty!

Oh dear, and I just recently started a thread about food... :o
:D
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Annapurna » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:03 am

Food as medicine constitutes an exception for me.

I think what was meant here was indulging in descriptions of sensuous sensations, desire and pleasure.
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:58 am

Fede wrote:
PeterB wrote:Ah... but also ma'am. I was in the habit of posting too often whereas you do not post enough...

:anjali:


I sure as heck don't come here often enough to see all my very good friends, that's faw shaw.... ;) :hug:



Your good friends would love to see you more often...
The forum needs more input from experienced daughters of the Buddha, like yourself and Cooran, to balance out the male blether from the likes of yours truly. ;)
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:29 pm

I'm a lady, and I think Sanghamitta is too.
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:18 pm

Then why do you have a male name ? :smile: Surely you should be Witch In The Forest...
as to Sanghamitta, she is no lady.... :o I hope she doesnt read that...
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:43 pm

Because I'm a Wizard, not a Witch. I remember once it being stated that in some cases, wizard and witch have taken on gender stereotypes that haven't existed before. Its very unusual for a female practitioner to consider herself a wizard; witch has been rhetorically programmed to be identified with 'woman' for so long, and through so much torment and heartbreak, that to identify oneself as a 'witch' gives a woman power to overcome trials. Therefore, though witch and wizard might have no linguistic basis in gender, the historical implications usually have as much impact on what a person chooses to call themselves as anything.

In addition, the ideas of witch and wizard have connotations about the kind of 'magick' one is likely to delve into. Witchcraft is very much associated with the here and now, finding its metaphor in nature magick, which is why the study of herbology, potions and whatnot is so strongly associated with the study. Wizardry, on the other hand, is associated with the larger forces of existence, ideas, the nature of existence itself, the 'ur' if you will. If you think about it this way, this also explains how both a witch and wizard might approach a similar problem: a witch might give someone a 'charm' to help them find a job, while a wizard might simply 'peer' into the maw of existence, 'see' how the universe is unfolding, and use such information to either guide the person to where they should be, or give them moral support, knowing that what they are going through now is going to pay off for them later.

However, if we are dealing with matters of magickal application, then the definitions of witch and wizard begin to take on a more pointed distinction. In its most basic understanding, a witch is someone who practices their craft using a wide variety of methods: spells, charms, potions, summons, incantations, to help augment the force of their will. A wizard is someone who practices their craft by force of will alone. In other words, a wizard is one who does not draw a pentagram on a floor with the magickal words written upon it in order to cast a protection spell: they simply 'will' protection into being. This distinction can be drawn further in that the more 'wizardly' one becomes, the less likely one will ever turn to using the tools to help themselves. Relying on the force of one's own will exclusively is what makes a wizard stronger, and most wizards will do their best to do their work with the least amount of 'support' as possible, since such hardship is the only way they know to make their will, and thus the force of their magick, stronger.

This arguement is sometimes seen in sci-fi and fantasy books as the distinction between a wizard and a high wizard or low magick and arcane or high magick, the distinction being that it is much more difficult to cause affect without using a focus or a complement (a boiling cauldron, roots, herbs, fairy dust, elder wands, etc etc) and therefore making the 'magick' all the more vulnerable to being discharged or broken.

Some of this is gender-bias, since the province of wizardry throughout the ages has taken on a more male-oriented role, but many such 'wizards' are closer to witches on further examination, since they often use props and other magickal implements (much like a witch) in order to perform their deeds.

As for the affectiveness of either method, neither is more or less effective than the other, since it is entirely dependent upon the practitioner. Just as a poorly trained martial artist can be beaten by a very skilled streetfighter, so too can a poorly developed wizard be overcome by a well-practiced witch, and I am not distinguishing by gender now, simply abilities. The 'power' comes from the person, and not by the methods they use.
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:48 pm

Well I suppose I did ask...I wish i hadnt now...
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:22 pm

:focus: Silly.

Overcoming debate?!
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Re: How to overcome love of debate?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:27 pm

:smile:
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