Why teaching fear?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:33 am

Hanzze wrote:. . .
I have no idea as to what you are talking about and I wonder if you do, either.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:09 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:23 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear tiltbillings,

when it produces neither fear nor hope it has done its cause.
When it has lead somebody to thinks about the origin of (wrong) fear it might be kusala.
When it has lead somebody to think about the danger of making somebody (wrong) fear it might be kusala.
When it has lead somebody that wrong fear has nothing to do with moral fear (ottappa) it might be kusala.

Walking on the Eightfould path requires no fear, its a way walkable without any fear.

Don't fear to walk on even your some wrong shame is present.

Fearless to resist Hope. Hopeless to resist Fear.

May it put an end on "Look. We don't believe (we don't have faith). We fear."


_/\_
with loving kindness and joy

Hanzze you still have not addressed the points raised by your OP. You stated that the Theravada supports fear. " Praises " fear. You were then asked to give a source for your belief that this is so, that the Theravada "praises" fear.
You then posted a quotation from a Tibetan Lama who was not in the passage quoted referring to fear at all.
You have then merely continued to repeat ad nauseum your contention that the Theravada is in favour of fear and telling us why we shouldnt be in favour of fear.
I know NO Theravadin teacher who sees fear as something favourable per se.
It would help if instead of simply repeating the same mantram you would point to the source of your idea that the Theravada thinks that fear is a good thing.
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:53 pm

You are right, I had posted a quote of an Tibetan Lama, and also that and where I changed it for its use. The origin of coming in touch with it you may see here: Why teaching hope? (on Dharma wheel)
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:57 pm

OP is actually Original Post. The post that begins a thread.
And still you have not answered my question.
Why do you think that the Theravada advocates fear per se.
On what is this opinion based.

But dont answer on my account. I have given up on expecting a reply.
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:12 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hoo » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:21 pm

Hanzze wrote:
I guess Thanissaro Bhikkhu did wrote the meaning very well in this words: Freedom From Fear For what it's worth, I think Thanissaro hit the nail on th head. the Dhamma is about freedom from fear. How does this not answer your questions on what did the Buddha teach?

Dear PeterB, those word from Trungpa Rinpoche I read some days ago, and I was very happy to see this explaining in such clear words, which I think are useful for the understanding of people today. They are so clear, that they are also useful to explain the opposite of hope, so I changed its meaning from the problem hope to the problem fear, as there is no different between. One is more linked to the future and the other is more linked to the history. As it is the same with love and hate.
[Theravada in its origin countries is taught with a lot of fear. As religion is mostly taught...

Well first, I doubt that Hanzee was taught Theravada in its origin counties, so why does he proclaim himself knowledgeable about it? I grew up with religious teaching that was based on fear and find Buddhism remarkably freeing. So all I have is Hanzee's assertion that Theravada teaches fear, and I don't find that in my study and practice. So far, it looks like Hanzee teaches fear and Theravada teaches the Dhamma, freedom from fear and suffering, the end of suffering. ;)

NO disrespect intended, Hanzee, but the issue seems to be evoving into one of who/when does one trust. You seem to present a viewpoint that has gotten several answers. Which do you trust and which do you not/and why? Have your original questions ben answered, or is there still an issueto address?

Hoo
Last edited by Hoo on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:41 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

I don't think that it is clear for all and there are still contradiction.
So let me ask one more time.

Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is teaching fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is leading to grasping on fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is praising fear?

Let me ask also in other words:

When there is Dhamma taught, which cause fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?
When there is Dhamma taught, which leads to grasp on fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?
When there is Dhamma taught, which praises fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?


Hello Hanzze,

The Venerable Pesala already explained, in which context fear is wholesome in Buddhism.

Herewith, your question should be sufficiently answered.

The Dhamma needs to be grasped in context, and not isolated.

Explaining wholesome fear is not tantamount to teaching or praising it.

If you feel Theravada does teach fear, or the Buddha, for that matter, can you share which teachings created this impression in you?

Could it be that some Buddhist teachings cause you, personally, fear and would you like to share, which? So that perhaps we can talk about that and help?

:anjali:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:36 pm

Hanzze wrote:. . .
Still haven't a clue as to what you are on about, but there have been excellent answers to your OP, which you don't seem to quite get. No further point for me here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:23 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:58 am

Hanzze wrote:Tiltbillings, . . .
Haven't a clue as to what you are trying to say.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:33 am

One should always consider the context of specific teachings and not get obesessed with one's onw ideas about an "ideal dhamma" as a whole and/or "how it should be".
Fear is appropriate in the contexts already mentioned, however it is not listed as enlightenment factor.

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:01 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:04 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear TMingyur,
is it not listed as an enlightenment factor as it is to overcome, or is it just not so important as we only like to be enlightend?
Is it possible to walk on, on the path with fear?
Where is the origin of fear?

I can only advise you to look how it is in your case.

Kind regards
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:15 am

Hanzze

Let me make a general remark, since I am observing your posts here and on dharma-wheel. Considering your posts what comes to my mind is: The teachings are not intended to develop meta-theories about them or to develop a "meta-dhamma" but the teachings are intended to be practiced.

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:27 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:10 am

Hanzze wrote:One does not like to help to build a Vihara, but he fears the critic of the others, is it a moral fear or a wrong fear?
One does not like to take on the robe, but he fears the critic of the others, is it a moral fear or a wrong fear?
One does not like to bow for a monk, but he fears the critic of the others, is it a moral fear or a wrong fear?


I assume that with "moral fear" you are referring to the appropriate fear mentioned above in the context of ethical wrongdoing.
Firstly, the differentiation between "moral fear" and "wrong fear" cannot be made on the basis of words describing these instances. So it depends on the subject. What does "does not like" mean? What is the context of the subject in terms of ethical commitments that go beyond the wrongdoings that are wrong by nature? Secondly, it depends on who these "others" are supposed to be and on the "factuality" ("reality") of these alleged "others".

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:38 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:01 pm

Hanzze wrote:
Dear Annapurna,

the Links that Venerable Pesala had posted, thanks again, are very good samples that the main "task" of Buddha Dhamma is to overcome fear.


Dear Hanzze,

I happened to come across a line by the Buddha this morning and it fits perfectly for this topic.

" I teach Dukkha, and I teach how to overcome Dukkha. "


Fear is one facet of Dukkha, but Dukkha has more facets than fear.


But I am not sure about the "If you do that, then ..."-teaching, well it is used here for example all the time.


Yes, it is the teaching of cause and result, of dependant origination.

However, there is a tricky part to this, to which some people can react.
It can remind them of situations, where they were under the thumb of authoritative people like parents, teachers, bosses and school yard bullies who used something seemingly different:

" If you do this, then...."

I think it is beneficial to illuminate past hurt and let go of it with Metta, so that the Dhamma can be seen for what it is. Help. Not another bully.


Annapurna, what do you think about this words:

Without hiri and ottappa, mankind will sink into evil depths, and be reduced to the state of animal. Today many people are void of moral shame and moral dread so that they dress, eat and behave indecently. If this moral decay continues to proliferate, the world will soon end in complete ruin. For mankind will then turn into animal.

Why does he use "if" ?


Hanzze, please, who said that, before I try to answer? :anjali:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:16 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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