Vipassana and the 12 links

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Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Sacha G » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:27 pm

Hi
As I understand vipassana, it's a recognition of the three characteristics within the compounded phenomena. Now this is based on observation of the arising and vanishing of the five aggregates. And this allows to obtain right view.
But, I don't see any condition between this and the fact of understanding paticcasamuppada, all the more as the classical explanation runs on 3 lives, and that this cannot be observed, unless you get the divine eye. :coffee:
Therefore I would like to know if you have any idea about this?
Thanx
Sacha
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Sacha G » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:29 pm

Sorry I meant * connexion, not condition. :|
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:15 pm

For the three lives answer I do not know


But for the in the moment answer, I can refer you to this http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... uppada.htm
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby PeterB » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:23 pm

As Craig says its not about the three lives hypothesis directly. Although Vipassana certainly does not deny the three lives view. Rather it is saying that what is germaine to past present and future can be found right here, with proper instruction and the right context.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby pegembara » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:30 pm

Svakkato Bhagavata Dhammo (well expounded is the Exalted One’s Dhamma)
Sanditthiko (to be seen here and now)
Akaliko (not delayed in time)
Ehipassiko ( (inviting one to) come and see)
Opanayiko (leading inwards)
Paccatam Veditabbo Vinnuhiti (to be seen by each wise man for himself)
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Sacha G » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Thank you for your answers already!
Actually I was wondering how the instructions on satipatthana (which are sufficient to bring to right view, I assume) fit with the exposition of paticcasamuppada, even if this paticcasamuppada is interpreted as showing what's happening in this very life, or even this very instant.
:juggling:
Thank U
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby householder » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:15 pm

Sacha G wrote:Thank you for your answers already!
Actually I was wondering how the instructions on satipatthana (which are sufficient to bring to right view, I assume) fit with the exposition of paticcasamuppada, even if this paticcasamuppada is interpreted as showing what's happening in this very life, or even this very instant.
:juggling:
Thank U
Sacha


I'm currently reading the Nibbana Sermons, having read Nanvira's 'Notes on Dhamma' in relation to paticcasmuppada, and will read the Buddhadasa article above, and will thus also be very interested in replies to Sacha's question above.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:23 am

Greetings Sacha,

(Note: this post was made whilst this topic was still in the Classical Theravada section)

Sacha G wrote:Actually I was wondering how the instructions on satipatthana (which are sufficient to bring to right view, I assume) fit with the exposition of paticcasamuppada, even if this paticcasamuppada is interpreted as showing what's happening in this very life, or even this very instant.

It is often said that the 'three lives' are comparable, because this life's past life, was the past life's present life, and so on. By that argument, if you directly know the links as they pertain to one "life", you'll know them all.

What might complicate that potentially are knowing the links that cross consecutive lifetimes, to which end I'd recommend you find one of those elaborate circular diagrams that shows the past and present causes and effects, as understood in the Mahavihara tradition, like this slightly ungainly one...

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby alan » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:32 am

Hi Sacha.
One question at a time. please!
Arising and passing away, or fading, might be a better way of understanding than using the word "vanishing". There is a subtle difference.
Although I know smart people who would argue otherwise, I've dropped the 3 lives idea. It just seems overly complex and not of immediate use.
One last point--the "3 characteristics" have been elevated to a high status in Vipassana. This might not correspond directly to some of the basic suttas. But that is enough for now.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:35 am

Greetings,

Just a quick reminder that in the Classical Mahavihara section, the Tipitaka and associated commentaries are considered definitive for the purposes of discussion.

Thanks for your understanding.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby alan » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:50 am

Oh, sorry.
Sacha might get a more satisfying response in another forum where her question(s) can be discussed freely.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Sacha G » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:30 pm

Hi, a small detail which has nothing to do, but Sacha's a male name ;)
Apart from that, if someone knows how to redirect this post to a more appropriate freedom (i.e allowing the interpretation within one lifetime of paticcasamuppada), it'd be nice!
:bow:
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Sacha G » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:32 pm

I meant * thread, not "freedom" :sage:
Sacha
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:39 pm

Greetings,

Topic moved to General Theravada in accord with OP's request.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby householder » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:46 pm

I have a two pronged question which I'd be grateful for replies on in relation to this.

First, in respect of the 'three lives' approach, is this in accordance with the dhamma being akaliko?

As an extension of the first part of the question above, how (if at all) does the below sutta have any bearing?

Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there
are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent
people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if
two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In
the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes
consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes
name-&-form. SN 12.67


I'm quite uncertain and confused.

If the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, then how, in the present, do we see the past and future through vipassana? Is that possible, or am I missing something here?

Thanks.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby alan » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:13 am

Best to understand the word akaliko and see how it is used in context. That alone might answer your questions.
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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:19 am

Greetings householder,

householder wrote:I'm quite uncertain and confused.

The works of Bhikkhu Nanananda provide good insight on nama-rupa in the context of dependent origination, and its relationship to consciousness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Nibbida » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:15 pm

Hi Sacha,

My favorite explanation of this is Christina Feldman's article: http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/1999a/christina.htm

One of the ways that vipassana plays into the 12 links is that it can nip the process in the bud. Without mindfulness, feeling turns into craving, which turns into clinging/attachment. But mindfulness can allow us to watch that process and let it dissipate instead of progress.
"Dispositions of the mind, like limbs of the body, acquire strength by exercise." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Postby Dmytro » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:37 am

Hi Sacha,

Sacha G wrote:As I understand vipassana, it's a recognition of the three characteristics within the compounded phenomena. Now this is based on observation of the arising and vanishing of the five aggregates. And this allows to obtain right view.
But, I don't see any condition between this and the fact of understanding paticcasamuppada, all the more as the classical explanation runs on 3 lives, and that this cannot be observed, unless you get the divine eye. :coffee:
Therefore I would like to know if you have any idea about this?


The essential part of paticcasamuppada is directly observable in this life:

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm

and there's a number of suttas with instructions on what to observe:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The best place to start is the link between feeling and craving:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Such contemplation can help to obtain right view, but to change the mind deeply, the vipassana has to be supplemented with samatha. Samadhi helps to deal with things that happen rarely (like birth and death), and may not be observable in the present moment.

Metta, Dmytro
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