Is samsara getting better?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:50 pm

Well if sentient beings are getting better then how long will it be before there is no world hunger; until eveyone has access to clean drinking water and clean air; until there is no more war, murder, rape, and nose picking?

The Beatles....It's getting better all the time.....I used to get mad at my school...(oooh can't complain) people who taught me weren't cool...(oooh can't complain)...holding me down...spinning me round....filling me up with their ruuuuuuuuules...yes I admit its getting better, a little better all the time (can't get no worse)...it's getting better all the tiiiiime..better...bettttter..beeeeeetttttttteerrrrr.......


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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby budo » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:59 pm

PeterB wrote:
fabianfred wrote:We are on the downward slope...
The continual cycle (all nature works in cycles)..... low point of human existence is a life span of ten years... high point is over 100,000 years...
Buddhas are only born when the human lifespan is dropping and between 100,000 and 100 years....now we are down to about a global average of 75 years....dying from natural causes that is...old age....not many get to do that now...mostly war and disease.
At the low point all morals have been lost from society and killing another human is seen as no different from killing an animal. Sex with anyone...like dogs.... females are mature at 5....boys at 6. Nature has been decimated by abuse. Seven days of mass killing ends with few survivors. They then live morally and gradually the lifespan increases to over 100,000 years. People and animals and plants and crops and nature get to reach their full potential.
the cycle continues and age drops to 80,000 years...when the next Buddha is predicted to appear.

Don't hold your breath...several million years away.


I would not take that business about lifespans literally, personally.


Actually, there is a bit of science behind this. I was watching a medical documentary on stress and they explain that a bat and a mouse are almost genetically identical except for a few chromosomes, but the only reason the bat has 5x longer life span is because it has almost no stress, since it can fly away from danger and a mouse can't. Therefore, the more stress in society, the shorter the life span.

There is also a lecture explaining that stress today is highest in the last 10,000 years, compared to paleolithic hunterers and gatherers, who only worked 2-4 hours, lived in nature (scientifically proven to be calming), and had more socialization. Today, most jobs are a minimum 8 hours a day with increasing overtime to meet globalization effects, with most people interfacing with a machine, in a small grey cubicle with flourescent lights. The number one selling drug today is the anti depressant.
“An effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely.” - George Orwell
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:27 pm

My teacher...L.P. Jaran says that stress is the main reason for cancer..... plus that cancer and aids etc. those difficult to cure diseases are karmic diseases.
Naturally, when the life-span is short the human body is small, like a pygmy or monkey, whereas when the lifespan is long we are like giants.
Of course, belief in this cycle is not important to our daily practice upon the path, but interesting, and logical. We know that all existence in Samsara is subject to impermanence and change, and change is cyclic not sudden.
The scriptures which predict this cycle, and the coming of the next Buddha, also mention that his height will be 85 kuub ( which is the measurement between our outstretched thumb and fore-finger)...roughly 40 feet tall, whilst the average male will reach 65 kuub and female 55 kuub. Giants indeed....are there not tales of giants in many cultures.
As I said in my first post, we all, nature animals, humans get to reach our full potential at that time. There is no war, breaking the five precepts, probably vegetarian diet only, no destroying nature, no sickness and disease....almost like life in one of the heaven realms.
Now we see the air and water and crops being polluted, animals made extinct, nature destroyed. There are medical cases of girls as young as five starting their periods.
In Africa people are lucky to live to 50 so the modern health care is only available for a small portion of the human race.
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:41 pm

My teacher...L.P. Jaran says that stress is the main reason for cancer..... plus that cancer and aids etc. . those difficult to cure diseases are karmic diseases


Cancer is the result of genetic mutations, its not "Karmic", The only way I can see it being "karmic" is if ones intentional action leads one to, lets say, smoke 100 a day and then get lung cancer. Its also very unlikely to come from stress.

HIV most likely came to be from the passing of SIV into humans, once again not really anything to do with "karma". Once again you can say its "karmic" if one intentionally has repeated unprotected sex despite knowing the risks. However its not always the result of intentional action, such as in rape or blood transfusions.



Dont you run the risk of demonising people who have HIV or Cancer?



Of course, belief in this cycle is not important to our daily practice upon the path, but interesting, and logical.


Its far from logical. In a world where humans only live till they were ten, humans would quickly die out completely and be extinct due to lack of ability to survive in the world properly and due to reproductive activity being greatly reduced, probably to zero


Also the fact that since homosapiens split from chimpanzees, the life span has increased not decreased. Even if people in Africa live to be 50, this is still an increase than what it was than say during the Neolithic Age



Now we see the air and water and crops being polluted, animals made extinct, nature destroyed.


Pollution may be directly from man but death and destruction of animals and nature have been around a long time before humans walked this earth. In earths history there have been many mass extinction events and disasters
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:46 pm

There is also a lecture explaining that stress today is highest in the last 10,000 years, compared to paleolithic hunterers and gatherers, who only worked 2-4 hours, lived in nature (scientifically proven to be calming), and had more socialization. Today, most jobs are a minimum 8 hours a day with increasing overtime to meet globalization effects, with most people interfacing with a machine, in a small grey cubicle with flourescent lights. The number one selling drug today is the anti depressant.



Yet we still live longer than those hunterer gatherers
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:10 pm

All suffering is karmic..... we cause other beings to suffer so we eventually reap the fruit of our actions by suffering ourselves.....no cause= no result.......
I am a follower of the Buddha and have great confidence in his teachings...because they are logical and I see them working every day. This cycle I talk of goes on between every Buddha appearing on the earth.
Genetics is merely a tool which the law of karma uses to give results. Of course the modern scientists do not believe in karma because it is not easy to prove, so they look for any other possible reason, within the limits of their own limited understanding.
All of us are here, because of karma, so i do not pick on anyone and target them, we are fortunate to be human because of past good karma, we all suffer as long as we have not escaped to Nirvana.
The timescale I am talking about is over millions of years, so modern science can only guess, they have no real knowledge of the past.....90% guesswork from a little evidence.
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby budo » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:17 pm

clw_uk wrote:
My teacher...L.P. Jaran says that stress is the main reason for cancer..... plus that cancer and aids etc. . those difficult to cure diseases are karmic diseases

Cancer is the result of genetic mutations,


First, this is not entirely true. Cancer is a result of Epigenetics, (which is currently being mapped out after the genome project), where bad DNA segments have been activated, this can be reversed with a healthy life style and with less stress, and with a protein called genesine.

source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/genes/issa.html

Second, reduction of stress encourages the growth of telomere, which allows cells to continue dividing. Our cells divide and grow, a telomere – a small DNA cap at the end of each chromosome - protects our dna from damage. The enzyme Telomerase, repairs the telomeres and ‘keeps DNA young'.

Several new telomerase-based drugs have entered Phase II and III clinical trials. And there is a very real race for the ultimate anti-aging pill.

"Current research reveals stressed people have shorter telomeres. Shorter telomeres appear to predispose us to disease and cancer and lead to shorter lives. Yet astonishingly, it has been discovered meditation appears to stall the process."

source: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/passion ... /immortal/

clw_uk wrote:
There is also a lecture explaining that stress today is highest in the last 10,000 years, compared to paleolithic hunterers and gatherers, who only worked 2-4 hours, lived in nature (scientifically proven to be calming), and had more socialization. Today, most jobs are a minimum 8 hours a day with increasing overtime to meet globalization effects, with most people interfacing with a machine, in a small grey cubicle with flourescent lights. The number one selling drug today is the anti depressant.



Yet we still live longer than those hunterer gatherers


Incorrect, during the paleolithic age disease was virtually non-existanant as the main diet was berrys, nuts and rarely meat. The only cause of death was physical injury.

Second, there are modern day hunterers and gatherers who prove this by their long lifespans. The Tarahumara tribe of Mexico, have zero disease, low physical injury, and long life spans with an average of 100-115. They can run for days without getting tired, and are able to catch up to fast running animals as the animals become tired and the Tarahumara don't. However the Tarahumara do not eat meat, their diet consists only of corn. There are many modern day hunter and gatherers in South America, such as recluse areas of Peru, where also the average life span is around 115.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/ ... orney-text
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby andre9999 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:31 pm

fabianfred wrote:All suffering is karmic..... we cause other beings to suffer so we eventually reap the fruit of our actions by suffering ourselves.....no cause= no result.......


Maybe this is off topic, but what of the five niyamas? If I get struck by lighting, I wouldn't think that's karmic - is it?
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:47 am

andre9999 wrote:
fabianfred wrote:All suffering is karmic..... we cause other beings to suffer so we eventually reap the fruit of our actions by suffering ourselves.....no cause= no result.......


Maybe this is off topic, but what of the five niyamas? If I get struck by lighting, I wouldn't think that's karmic - is it?


Who can tell...my teacher L.P.Jaran was struck by lightening several times...and he said that it was a karmic result of his liking to swear "...if I am lying may I be struck by lightening..." when he was lying...as a youth.
He IS able to see his own past karma and that of other beings, but the rest of us cannot so we cannot know the real cause of things.
I admit that not everything is caused by karma, there are accidents, but very few.

As i said the cause of cancer is not important, but the law of karma does use things such as genetics as a means to give its results, and ones susceptability to a disease is probably down to karma too.
Even during the great plague there were some who survived and perhaps they had not created the karma by practicing non-harming of other beings in their past lives.
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:49 am

Since most suffering is the result of karma, my teacher says that we should pay it off, here and now, by practicing vipassana meditation.
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:43 pm

First, this is not entirely true. Cancer is a result of Epigenetics, (which is currently being mapped out after the genome project), where bad DNA segments have been activated, this can be reversed with a healthy life style and with less stress, and with a protein called genesine.



My definition was a basic and standard one, all you have done is gone into more detail


I agree that a healthy lifestyle and lower stress can help with cancer prevention, however this is not always the case. To imply that all that is needed to be free from cancer is stress reduction and meditation is nonsensical


To assert that "stress is the main reason for cancer" is also nonsensical


Second, reduction of stress encourages the growth of telomere, which allows cells to continue dividing. Our cells divide and grow, a telomere – a small DNA cap at the end of each chromosome - protects our dna from damage. The enzyme Telomerase, repairs the telomeres and ‘keeps DNA young'.

Several new telomerase-based drugs have entered Phase II and III clinical trials. And there is a very real race for the ultimate anti-aging pill.

"Current research reveals stressed people have shorter telomeres. Shorter telomeres appear to predispose us to disease and cancer and lead to shorter lives. Yet astonishingly, it has been discovered meditation appears to stall the process."



Firstly it is not yet fully established if ageing is due to telomeres, due in part or not at all


I agree that stress can help people live a longer life but that is a different ball court to the original claim


Incorrect, during the paleolithic age disease was virtually non-existanant as the main diet was berrys, nuts and rarely meat. The only cause of death was physical injury.



Due to low level populations


Second, there are modern day hunterers and gatherers who prove this by their long lifespans. The Tarahumara tribe of Mexico, have zero disease, low physical injury, and long life spans with an average of 100-115. They can run for days without getting tired, and are able to catch up to fast running animals as the animals become tired and the Tarahumara don't. However the Tarahumara do not eat meat, their diet consists only of corn. There are many modern day hunter and gatherers in South America, such as recluse areas of Peru, where also the average life span is around 115.



Good for them however on average the Human life span is increasing and not decreasing, as was claimed
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Even during the great plague there were some who survived and perhaps they had not created the karma by practicing non-harming of other beings in their past lives.



Those that survived did so via luck, geography or possibly due to the effects of having the CCR5-Δ32 gene (although this is disputed)


I dont see where "past life karma" comes into it



I think its true to say that something that explains everything actually explains nothing. Seeing Karma as being the cause of this and that is no different to seeing the hand of God or gods in such things, from what I can see anyway
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:53 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Even during the great plague there were some who survived and perhaps they had not created the karma by practicing non-harming of other beings in their past lives.


Those that survived did so via luck, geography or possibly due to the effects of having the CCR5-Δ32 gene (although this is disputed)

I dont see where "past life karma" comes into it

I think its true to say that something that explains everything actually explains nothing. Seeing Karma as being the cause of this and that is no different to seeing the hand of God or gods in such things, from what I can see anyway


Buddhists do not believe in 'luck' like the rest of the world ....who are ignorant of the real reason for things...karma.

The fact that 'you' don't see where past life karma comes into it is irrelevant.
On Dhamma wheel you seem to always take the scientific standpoint and seem to be looking to debunk everything in the scriptures....for a mere 22 year old you have big ego problems. I don't even know why you come here...just for arguments?
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:05 pm

Bhante

Buddhists do not believe in 'luck' like the rest of the world ....who are ignorant of the real reason for things...karma


Ok maybe "luck" was a bad choice of word, chance would be better (I see them as different concepts)

The fact that 'you' don't see where past life karma comes into it is irrelevant.


I agree its irrelevant but for a different reason

On Dhamma wheel you seem to always take the scientific standpoint


Only when people here stray into scientific claims and say things that are very unlikely to be true. However I only do so in areas where I have some knowledge, for example in terms of physics I prefer to leave it to the fellow physicists here (physics isnt my strong point)

However I do not adhere to "scientism" at all (which I assume you are applying, sorry if your not)


and seem to be looking to debunk everything in the scriptures


Not at all, I fully accept the Four Noble Truths, Three Marks, Dependent Origination etc

....for a mere 22 year old you have big ego problems.


Well we all do unless there is wisdom

I don't even know why you come here...just for argument


Just because I argue a different point doesnt mean I do so just for the sake of argument
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:57 am

sorry for jumping down your throat...i suppose we all get a bit defensive at times :hug:
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby fabianfred » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:09 am

If you want to know if samsara is getting better..... view these documentaries...
no need to even watch them....just reading the synopsis of each one is very depressing...to see how much corruption, greed, and hate goes on....

http://www.sprword.com/mustwatch.html
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby shjohnk » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:47 am

Also, don't forget that Samsara includes the lower realms as well as this human one: I doubt the hells are getting more democratic (the motion for tongue severing to be reduced to once a week was crushed apparentlly) nor that there have been increases in the living standards of hungry ghosts. So no, I doubt that samsara has or ever will get any better.
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby gerard » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:18 am

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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:24 am

Utter piffle. Welcome to the forum..which is Buddhist forum btw. Not a new age /taoist forum.
We dont "do" yin/ yang or The Way.
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Re: Is samsara getting better?

Postby gerard » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:59 am

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