The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:21 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
uptuyou wrote:Ultimately we can discuss these things until we are blue in the face. However, we will only know the truth of the questions at hand through silence. It is only through asking the question, "What am I?" That one begins to understand ones true nature and relationship with God, Atman, Allah or what-have-you.

gus


From a Buddhist perspective, you are right - there is a very clear relationship between a self and a supreme God.

How so?

Both are figments of conceptual proliferation, ultimately unable to found in any sense at all.
(For which many will further provide more conceptually proliferated explanations, but that happens ...)


"The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering." - Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 19
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:54 am

Dhammanando wrote:The "without a refuge/protector" translation supposes anabhissaro to be an adjective formed from "na abhissarati", the passive form of the verb abhisarati, from the root *sar (the same root as sarana, refuge).

The "without a Supreme God" translation, since it posits a connection between anabhissaro and issaro (God) would need to be formed from an entirely different root: *is or *iis. But since there is no such verb as abhissati or abhiissati, one would first need to form the noun issaro, then prefix it with abhi-, then add the negative an-.

Both ways are possible, but the second is extremely improbable, for had the word been formed in this way we should expect to meet with instances of the unnegated form 'abhissaro' in the sense of "Supreme God". But there is no such instantiation even in the commentaries, let alone the Suttas.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

Ven Sir,

I certainly bow to your superior knowledge of Pali; however, it would hardly be the first instance of a Pali word used in the suttas in a unique construction. Anabhissaro is found only in the Pali sutta MN 82, and the “four summaries of the Dhamma” are also unique to this sutta. Also, it would hardly be the first instance of an ambiguity used as a paronomasia to make a point. abhisarati, according to the CSCD, finds life only as a commentarial world, which could easily mean reading a commentarial notion backwards into the sutta. "na abhissarati" - if I have the diacritics correct - certainly is a not a sutta locution.

. . . for had the word been formed in this way we should expect to meet with instances of the unnegated form 'abhissaro' in the sense of "Supreme God".
From what you said, this caveat does not seem to hold up.

Also, given that the commentaries do not do a good job of acknowledging the Brahmanical milieu of the Buddha, The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God. is still a viable option as a translation within the historical context.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby uptuyou » Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:57 am

"The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering." [/b]- Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 19



I use "God, Atman, Allah or what-have-you" as a mere reference to a thing which would be neither with a definition nor substance as, at least I, would understand it. Perhaps it is merely some sort of ethereal intelligence. The fact that it is either permanent or substance would be a wager on my part.

I am open to whatever form it is at the moment.

That it would be ever changing or in fact impermanent would seem a logical assumption; as every reflection of it seems to be such.

gus
Profundity lies in the silence between the words.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:02 am

uptuyou wrote:
"The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering." [/b]- Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 19



I use "God, Atman, Allah or what-have-you" as a mere reference to a thing which would be neither with a definition nor substance as, at least I, would understand it. Perhaps it is merely some sort of ethereal intelligence. The fact that it is either permanent or substance would be a wager on my part.

I would wager "it" is a construction. Just one more of which to let go.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:37 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Just to do my usual part, if anyone is wondering that perhaps the Pali (as one of a number of various Prakrits around India at the time) is in error (change a little vowel here, shift a little bit here), it is seen that in the North Western Sthavira traditions, the term is also "without a refuge", and not "without a supreme god". This is evidenced in a number of texts, not just one.

You are saying that anabhissaro in its other prakrit cognates is used in other texts outside of the Lai-cha-ho-lo-ching?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19210
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

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