tiltbillings wrote: No doubt god-believing people back then did not associate the existence of an idea of a god as a product of a self concept any more than they do now.
But some would have then, just as some would now. The translation "Supreme God" tends to shut down that likelihood, however. That's why "Supreme God" is a distracting translation alternative.
You seem overly stuck on “Supreme God.” I think it works, but, as I have indicated repeatedly, I am open to something else, if it would make the point of the text; however, if “Supreme God” is bad, then “supreme master” is really bad in connotation. I certainly could go with “supreme protector,” or “supreme guardian,” which nicely gives us balance in the translation of the line and balances nicely with Ven Ratthapala’s discussion of the line in question with the king. And, importantly, pushes towards the god notion inherent in abhi-issaro
tiltbillings wrote: That there is no one, no thing, outside our selves to whom we can point, that will protect us from the oppressive change is part and parcel of the Buddha’s Dhamma.
Perhaps you hold the view that there is some such thing within oneself? Your translation tends to support that viewpoint, whereas the more common translations do a better job of inviting a broader undersanding of what an abhi-issaro might be.
You make statements like this, but offer no discussion of what you say to show that it is even possibly so (until really pushed to do so).
tiltbillings wrote:Nothing has been presented, yet, that would change my opinion.
I would never under any cirucmstances expect to see you change your opinion on any matter, and certainly not on this matter. I am trying to abandon the other expectations I brought to this discussion.
I welcome a chance to be challenged enough that I change my opinion about something, but it has not happened here, yet.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80
Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
dheamhan a fhios agam
Damned if I know.