Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

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Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:20 am

I remember in the Nikayas several explanations in which people who use the Dhamma as a tool to engage people in debate was censured, and the people who did that were said to not grasp its true meaning. I am of the opinion that the teachings should also not be a tool to be used to gain popularity or favor with people. I just don't remember where there was discussion of incorrect use of the teachings. I remember the Simile of the snake, but not any other specific cases where the use of the teachings specifically was discussed. Can anyone help me out with finding these suttas?
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:37 am

If one of the uses of the Dhamma is not to engage people in debate...at least about Dhamma, then we should all pack up our tents and steal away quietly.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:40 am

"Suppose there were a man needing a water-snake, seeking a water-snake, wandering in search of a water-snake. He would see a large water-snake and grasp it by the coils or by the tail. The water-snake, turning around, would bite him on the hand, on the arm, or on one of his limbs, and from that cause he would suffer death or death-like suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the water-snake. In the same way, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma... Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering. They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html

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Last edited by Wizard in the Forest on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:42 am

In that case I suggest you revisit your post.

:anjali:
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby plwk » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:42 am

Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:43 am

PeterB wrote:In that case I suggest you revisit your post.

:anjali:


Which post are you speaking of, if it's alright to ask?
Last edited by Wizard in the Forest on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:51 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:44 am

Thank you Plwk, I know I can rely on you for help. :anjali:
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:57 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
PeterB wrote:In that case I suggest you revisit your post.

:anjali:


Which post are you speaking of, if it's alright to ask?

I know you weren't asking me but I believe that he was referring to the first sentence of your original post for this thread where you wrote:
"I remember in the Nikayas several explanations in which people who use the Dhamma as a tool to engage people in debate was censured, and the people who did that were said to not grasp its true meaning."

I believe that he was disagreeing with the concept that the Dhamma should across the board not be used for engaging people in debate in that he seems to be of the opinion that some debate (e.g. debate on the Dhamma) is a useful thing.....but this is just my view of what he has posted.

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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:15 pm

That will do nicely Chownah... :smile:

:anjali:
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:53 pm

That's one thing, but that's coming from wrong grasp of it, according to what the teachings say about themselves.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:58 pm

Oh I am quite sure I have all sorts of wrong grasps of all sorts of things. I rather thought was what the forum was for....to have my wrong views challenged. And thereby to correct them.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:29 pm

Greetings,

PeterB wrote:I rather thought was what the forum was for....to have my wrong views challenged. And thereby to correct them.

:clap:

That's grasping the forum correctly. 8-)

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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:49 am

I think those two pictures are useful in additional to this very good topic, thanks for open it!

5. WISDOM SPRUNG OUR OF "THE MUD"

Image

This picture is another symbol of mind and body, or nama and rupa. The body here, is represented as mud beneath the water while the mind is the lotus that springs from the mud. Unlike the loethsomeness of the body, the lotus is fragrant and our. The turbulence of the waters and the fish therein are all the worldly desires which agitate the mind. The man emerging from the lotus is holding a disc and a sword which symbolize the wisdom that cuts off and removes all defilements (kilesa). Defilement here, is represented by the boy approaching the enlightened man who, triumphant, pays no attention. The man in the right-hand corner holding the lotus-fruit has practised meditation and has found the way out of the darkness, having seen for himself the Fruit of Dhamma.

18. WRONG PRACTICE OF BUDDHA-DHAMMA

Image


The Buddha, here representing the true teaching, is being attacked by three monks and one laymen. The fact that there is only one layman attacking the teachings indicates that many monks, once having been ordinated in the order, continue to follow false path and are attached to ceremony. They are indifferent to the true teachings and prefer the Wheel of Wandering-on to Nibbana.

(Monks, as they are more conspicuous than layman and because they are supposed to be devoting their lives to the Three Gems, and because it is known that they have many precepts to keep pure, can attack the Dhamma by misconduct in a more violent way than is possible for laypeople)

From Teaching Dhamma with pictures
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby PeterB » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:47 am

Que ?
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:15 pm

No se, estoy confundida porque Hanzze simpre habla asi.
Last edited by Wizard in the Forest on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:28 pm

In English? :anjali:
Last edited by Annapurna on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:30 pm

Oh sure, PeterB said:

what?

I said:

I don't know, I'm confused because Hanzze always talks like that.

But that's my mother and father's tongue, Spanish. Gut reaction to answer back in Spanish.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby octathlon » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:02 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:No se, estoy confundido porque Hanzze simpre habla asi.

Ah, eres un hombre? Pensaba que fueres una mujer, como yo.
(translation--Oh, you're a man? I thought you were a woman, like me). Must have gotten that idea from some post somewhere. Or maybe from your avatar/sig picture.
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:12 am

Sí soy una mujer, pero creí que Hanzze es un hombre, verdad?
Yes, I am a lady, but I thought Hanzze is a gentleman is he not?

Oh, grammar error! Cursed automatic type in my mobile...
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Re: Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

Postby Hanzze » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:18 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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