Give up all your ideas first!

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Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:44 pm

Dear friends,

special "modern" man's head is full of ideas and knowledge, it would be good to cleaning it from all dirt first.

..."Then these three similes — spontaneous, never before heard — appeared to me. Suppose there were a wet, sappy piece of timber lying in the water, and a man were to come along with an upper fire-stick, thinking, 'I'll light a fire. I'll produce heat.' Now what do you think? Would he be able to light a fire and produce heat by rubbing the upper fire-stick in the wet, sappy timber lying in the water?"

"No, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because the timber is wet & sappy, and besides it is lying in the water. Eventually the man would reap only his share of weariness & disappointment."

"So it is with any priest or contemplative who does not live withdrawn from sensuality in body & mind, and whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is not relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving [for Awakening], he is incapable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening. This was the first simile — spontaneous, never before heard — that appeared to me.

"Then a second simile — spontaneous, never before heard — appeared to me. Suppose there were a wet, sappy piece of timber lying on land far from water, and a man were to come along with an upper fire-stick, thinking, 'I'll light a fire. I'll produce heat.' Now what do you think? Would he be able to light a fire and produce heat by rubbing the upper fire-stick in the wet, sappy timber lying on land far from water?"

"No, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because the timber is wet & sappy, even though it is lying on land far from water. Eventually the man would reap only his share of weariness & disappointment."

"So it is with any priest or contemplative who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body only, but whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is not relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving, he is incapable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening. This was the second simile — spontaneous, never before heard — that appeared to me.

"Then a third simile — spontaneous, never before heard — appeared to me. Suppose there were a dry, sapless piece of timber lying on land far from water, and a man were to come along with an upper fire-stick, thinking, 'I'll light a fire. I'll produce heat.' Now what do you think? Would he be able to light a fire and produce heat by rubbing the upper fire-stick in the dry, sapless timber lying on land?"

"Yes, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because the timber is dry & sapless, and besides it is lying on land far from water."

"So it is with any priest or contemplative who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body & mind, and whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving, he is capable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening. This was the third simile — spontaneous, never before heard — that appeared to me....


Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:52 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear friends,

special "modern" man's head is full of ideas and knowledge, it would be good to cleaning it from all dirt first.
I realize you can barely write English, but it also seem that you take no care in reading it. This sutta has not about "giving up idea ideas." Try again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:02 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:06 pm

Hanzze wrote:The I got something wrong, maybe its because I do not read that well. Thanks tiltbillings!
But maybe the translation of Brewster/Davids is different.

Oh this words, how will I ever get the meaning.
The translation is fine; you seem to be wanting the text to fit your odd ideas of Dhamma practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:07 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:11 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear tiltbillings,

what does the timber stick symbolize from your opinion?
The text is clear about that, and it is not: "Give up all your ideas first!"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:17 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:22 pm

Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Dear tiltbillings,

what does the timber stick symbolize from your opinion?
The text is clear about that, and it is not: "Give up all your ideas first!"

So that is what? Mind? Tradition? Body? A metaphor for what, form your opinion?
What is the text about?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:58 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:01 pm

Hanzze wrote:I guess the text is about "how the Buddha Gautama, attained enlightenment" and desire is the first which has to be cleaned and after it is dry from the water, one can move on.
Ideas (initial applications) and there constitutions based on knowledge which has no other aim as to feed this desire are much hindrance at the very first step. I agree with you that there are also positive vitakkas but normally well mixed with all the mad.

So would it be ok for you if we say: "Give up all mad thinking and planning fist" ?
You can say what you want. You still do not have a clue what this rather straightforward text is actually saying. Actually, it really does not matter what the text actually says, you seem to want it to say something to fit your idiosyncratic point of view and that is what the text is going to say, according to you. I am out of here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:58 pm

As Tilt says, the simile seems rather straightforward:
"Would he be able to light a fire and produce heat by rubbing the upper fire-stick in the dry, sapless timber lying on land?"

"Yes, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because the timber is dry & sapless, and besides it is lying on land far from water."

"So it is with any priest or contemplative who lives withdrawn from sensuality in body & mind, and whose desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality is relinquished & stilled within him: Whether or not he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings due to his striving, he is capable of knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening.

The wetness in the wood is "desire, infatuation, urge, thirst, & fever for sensuality", the fire is "knowledge, vision, & unexcelled self-awakening".

It's interesting that in this simile fire is used in a positive sense, whereas Nibbana is often represented as a fire going out.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:39 pm

Idea: Let's declare tomorrow 'Be kind to Hanzee day." :group:

:popcorn:

M4
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby meindzai » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:17 pm

Metta-4 wrote:Idea: Let's declare tomorrow 'Be kind to Hanzee day." :group:

:popcorn:

M4


I think Tiltbillings has been extremely kind.

-M
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:09 am

Dear friends,

ENLIGHTENMENT ATTAINED

(FROM THE MAHASACCAKA SUTTA)

Containing a further description of the Buddha's search for enlighten-
ment, taken from Sutta No. 36 of the Majjhima-Nikaya.

(The Buddha is addressing Aggivessana.)

" Here there came to me, Aggivessana, three comparisons
spontaneously, not previously heard.

" Thus if, Aggivessana, a damp, muddy piece of wood
should be thrown into the water.; and a man come there
provided with a piece of wood to rub (thinking) : ' I wish
to make a fire, to produce light.' What think you now,
Aggivessana, could this man possibly make a fire, produce
light by rubbing a damp, muddy piece of wood which had
been thrown into the water ? "

" Certainly not, Gotama."

" And why not ? "

" That piece of wood, Gotama, is damp, muddy and also
had been thrown into the water. All the trouble and bother
of the man would be in vain."

" Now it is just so, Aggivessana, with certain ascetics
or brahmans, who are not weaned from the body, who are
not inwardly rid of, and wholly allayed what in their desires
is the wish of desire, the snare of desire, the dizziness of
desire, the thirst of desire, and the fever of desire ; if now
these good ascetics and brahmans experience painful,
piercing, terrible sensations that arise in them, then they
are incapable of wisdom, of insight, and of the incomparable
full awakening ; and also if these good ascetics and brahmans
do not experience painful, piercing, terrible sensations that
arise in them, then also they are incapable of wisdom, of
insight, and of the incomparable full awakening. Now this
comparison, Aggivessana, was the first to come to me, spontan-
eously, not previously heard.

" And then, Aggivessana, there came to me a second
comparison spontaneously, not previously heard. Thus if,
Aggivessana, a damp, muddy piece of wood should be cast far
from the water upon the ground, and a man should come



ENLIGHTENMENT ATTAINED 31

provided with a piece of wood to rub (thinking) : ' I wish
to make fire, to produce light.' What do you think now,
Aggivessana, could this man possibly make fire, produce
light, by rubbing the damp and muddy piece- of wood cast
far from the water on to the ground ? "

" Certainly not, Gotama."

" And why not ? "

" That piece of wood, Gotama, is damp and muddy and
also it has been cast from the water on to the ground, all
the trouble and bother of the man would be in vain."

" Now exactly like this, Aggivessana, it is with certain
ascetics or brahmans, who have overcome the body, and
also desire, who nevertheless are not inwardly rid of and
have not wholly allayed what in their desires is the wish
of desire, the snare of desire, the dizziness of desire, the
thirst of desire, the fever of desire ; if now these good ascetics
and brahmans experience painful, piercing, terrible sensations
that arise in them, they are incapable of wisdom, of insight,
and the incomparable full awakening ; and even if these
good ascetics and brahmans experience not these painful,
piercing, terrible sensations that arise in them, then also
they are incapable of wisdom, of insight, and the incomparable
full awakening. This comparison, Aggivessana, was the
second to come to me, spontaneously, not previously heard.

" And then, Aggivessana, there came to me a third com-
parison, spontaneously, not previously heard. Thus, Aggi-
vessana, if a dry, clean piece of wood, that (once) had been
cast far from the water upon the ground, and a man should
come provided with a piece of wood to rub (thinking) :
' I wish to make fire, to produce light.' What do you think
now, Aggivessana, could this man possibly make fire,
produce light, by rubbing the dry, clean piece of wood cast
far from the water upon the ground ? "

" Certainly, Gotama."

" And why ? "

" That piece of wood is dry and clean and lies on the ground
out of the water."

" Now exactly like this is it with certain ascetics and
brahmans that have been weaned from the body, and also



32 DISCIPLINE AND ENLIGHTENMENT

from desires, that are inwardly rid of and have wholly allayed
what in their desires is the wish of desire, the snare of desire,
the dizziness of desire, the thirst of desire, the fever of desire,
if thus these good ascetics and brahmans feel painful, piercing,
terrible sensations, that arise in them, then" they are capable
of wisdom, of insight, and the imcomparable full awakening ;
and even if these dear ascetics and brahmans do not feel
painful, piercing, terrible sensations, that arise in them,
also then they are capable of wisdom, of insight, and of the
incomparable full awakening.

" This comparison, Aggivessana, was the third to come to
me, spontaneously, not previously heard.

" These three comparisons, Aggivessana, came to me
spontaneously, not previously heard.

" Then, Aggivessana, this came to me : ' What if I
now with gritted teeth, and my tongue cleaving to my
palate, should master, crush, and force my thought by the
mind ? ' And I now, Aggivessana, with gritted teeth,
and tongue cleaving to my palate, mastered, crushed, and
forced my thought by the mind. While I thus, Aggivessana,
with gritted teeth, and my tongue cleaving to my palate,
mastered, crushed, and forced my thought by the mind, the
sweat oozed out from under my arm-pits. Just as, Aggi-
vessana, a strong man seizing another weaker one by his
head or shoulder masters, crushes and forces him, Aggivessana,
so with gritted teeth and tongue cleaving to my palate I
mastered, crushed, and forced my thought by the mind until
the sweat oozed out from under my arm-pits. Also verily,
Aggivessana, energetic and not weakened was my force,
present and irremovable my attention, but my body being
driven by such painful effort was agitated and disturbed.
However, Aggivessana, my condition was such that the
painful feelings arisen in me could not obsess my thought.


"The life of Gotama the Buddha" - BY E. H. BREWSTER
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:24 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby alan » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:33 am

Am I the only one who finds Hanzze's English skills to vary from post to post?
Depending on his interests, he is capable of writing a sensible sentence. But when challenged he tends to revert to gobble.
I don't mean to be rude here. But it seems to me that anyone who can follow the sometimes difficult discussions posted on DW, and who can read the suttas, must certainly be proficient enough in English to respond in a way that will be understood.
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby octathlon » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:47 am

It's usually easier to understand the gist of what you are reading in a foreign language than it is to express yourself when writing in it.
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:08 am

alan wrote:Am I the only one who finds Hanzze's English skills to vary from post to post?
Depending on his interests, he is capable of writing a sensible sentence. But when challenged he tends to revert to gobble.
I don't mean to be rude here. But it seems to me that anyone who can follow the sometimes difficult discussions posted on DW, and who can read the suttas, must certainly be proficient enough in English to respond in a way that will be understood.
He grossly misread the sutta in question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:10 am

Hanzze,

There are plwnty of resources online for those who are ELS (English as a Second Language) speaker/writers. You realy do need to do some work on that. http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Give up all your ideas first!

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:38 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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