A way for inferior people, not superior people

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A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby phil » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:20 am

Hi all

I'm trying to find the sutta in which the Buddha warns about the path of sensuality as an inferior path for inferior people, not for surperior people, this is not for you, or something like that. Can anyone help me find it? I think it is a good example of how the Buddha used different methods to help us fight the gross kilesas. Of course satipatthana, guarding the sense doors, they are the ultimately best way of protection, but there are times when turning to self-esteem is necessary when the kilesas are really strong...

Of course people will say that "inferior people" is just conventional shorthand for inferior mind states, but so far at least I disagree...
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby nobody12345 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:59 am

That term (inferior people) has been traslated as 'Worldlings' by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
And I tend to agree with you that it's not just a state of mind.
Not everyone can follow this path laid down by the fully awakened one, the Buddha.
This is the path that goes against the stream of the world and it demands certain qualities from its practitioners.
This path is not for everyone.
This path is not for worldlings.
Let it be.
Metta.
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby phil » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:08 am

imaginos wrote:That term (inferior people) has been traslated as 'Worldlings' by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
And I tend to agree with you that it's not just a state of mind.
Not everyone can follow this path laid down by the fully awakened one, the Buddha.
This is the path that goes against the stream of the world and it demands certain qualities from its practitioners.
This path is not for everyone.
This path is not for worldlings.
Let it be.
Metta.


Hi, thanks for your comment.
So I guess "superior people" is referring to Ariyans, and inferior people to the rest of us, at least the commentaries would say that...

In any case, I will turn to this sutta as I do sometimes (reference please, someone!) thoroughly drenched in atta view when I do so, but also standing up successfullly against the powerful pull of the gross kilesas...and sometimes that is a big Enough.
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby lojong1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:30 am

Anangana sutta MN 5 contains -eriorities.
"Here,
a certain person with blemish does not know, as it really is, there is blemish in me.
A certain person with blemish knows, as it really is, there is blemish in me.
A certain person without blemish does not know as it really is, there is no blemish in me. A certain person without blemish knows as it really is, there is no blemish in me. Of the two persons with blemish, the one who does not know as it really is, there is blemish in me is the inferior The one who knows as it really is, there is blemish in me is the superior one.
Of the two persons without blemish, the one who does not know, as it really is, there is no blemish is the inferior one. The one who knows as it really is, there is no blemish in me is the superior."
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby suriyopama » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:35 am

Hi Phil,

There is a site "The Householder Sutta Page" that may have it. Maybe it is the "Ditthi Sutta"?

http://www.angelfire.com/on2/buddhism/householder.html
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby lojong1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:41 am

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fn-57
Maha-satipatthana sutta
"note 57: 'Sa-uttara', and 'anuttara' are relative terms, indicating inferior and superior states of mind. A state of mind that has some other state of mind superior to it, and is therefore inferior, is sa-uttara citta; a state of mind that is superior to some other state of mind is anuttara citta. Kāmāvacara citta, the state of mind of the sensuous realms, is inferior to the rūpa and arūpa jhāna states of mind. The rūpa jhāna state of mind is inferior to the arūpa jhana state of mind, but is superior to the kāmāvacara state of mind. In vipassanā practice, the arūpa jhāna state of mind is superior to both the rūpa jhāna and the kamavacara states of mind. Within the stages of the jhānas themselves, each jhāna is relatively inferior or superior, progressing to the nevasaññānāsaññāyatana jhāna which is the highest state of mind. An ordinary yogi who has no experience of jhāna cannot concentrate on the mahaggara or anuttara states of mind.

As a matter of fact, anuttara is normally an epithet for Lokuttarā citta or Magga-phala citta. However, in vipassanā practice, the yogi can concentrate only on the five upādānakkhandhas, the five Aggregates which form the objects of Clinging. He cannot concentrate on Magga-phala citta. Therefore, jhānas are given the epithet anuttara. (The Commentary)"
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby lojong1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:52 am

imaginos wrote:That term (inferior people) has been translated as 'Worldlings' by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Translating from English to English?
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby phil » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:56 am

Thanks all

Did some book flipping and found the passage I was looking for in SN 35:246:

"Bhikkhus, if in any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni desire or lust or hatred or delusion or aversion of mind should arise in regard to forms cognizable by the eye, such a one should rein in the mind from them thus: 'This path is fearful, dangerous, strewn with thorns, covered by jungle, a deviant path, an evil path, a way beset by scarcity. This is a path followed by inferior people; it is not the path followed by superior people. This is not for you.' In this way the mind should be reined in from these states regarding forms congnizable by the eye. So too regarding sounds cognizable by the ear...."

I would hazard a guess that this is similar in a way to the sutta (either MN 19 or 20 I can never remember) in which the Buddha says that one of 5 ways to deal with distracting thoughts is to fend them off by force by gritting the teeth, or something like that. In neither case an ideal response, but whatever works works at times when the defilements are especially strong and demanding.
I hope that every time I post it will be accompanied by a wish for the wellbeing of everyone in this sangha and all beings.
(so I don't have to write "metta" every time!)


Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby lojong1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:37 am

phil wrote:Did some book flipping and found the passage I was looking for in SN 35:246:..."superior people"...

This superior is the same 'sappurisa'--or 'person of integrity'-- of AN 4.73 Sappurisa sutta:
"Now, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of integrity [sappurisa/superior].' Which four?

"There is the case where a person of integrity, when asked, does not reveal another person's bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals another person's good points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's good points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Then again, a person of integrity, when asked, does not reveal his own good points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own good points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'

"Monks, a person endowed with these four qualities can be known as 'a person of integrity.'"
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby lojong1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:53 am

MN 13 Sappurisa sutta gives the same meaning of 'superior man/sappurisa':
"Putting the practice of the way first, [the superior man/sappurisa] neither lauds himself nor disparages others..."
Good timing Phil.
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby lojong1 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:12 am

My MN5 -eriority quote was setthapurisa and hinapurisa...thus the difference in definition?

But then there is the Asappurisa Sutta.-The man who has wrong view, wrong aim, etc., is called "unworthy" (asappurisa); he who has the opposite qualities is "worthy." S.v.19.

huh.
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby nobody12345 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:15 am

lojong1 wrote:
imaginos wrote:That term (inferior people) has been translated as 'Worldlings' by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

Translating from English to English?

Sorry that I did not include Pali term.
I believe It's Puthujjanā.
Metta.
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby nobody12345 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:41 am

phil wrote:
imaginos wrote:That term (inferior people) has been traslated as 'Worldlings' by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
And I tend to agree with you that it's not just a state of mind.
Not everyone can follow this path laid down by the fully awakened one, the Buddha.
This is the path that goes against the stream of the world and it demands certain qualities from its practitioners.
This path is not for everyone.
This path is not for worldlings.
Let it be.
Metta.


Hi, thanks for your comment.
So I guess "superior people" is referring to Ariyans, and inferior people to the rest of us, at least the commentaries would say that...

In any case, I will turn to this sutta as I do sometimes (reference please, someone!) thoroughly drenched in atta view when I do so, but also standing up successfullly against the powerful pull of the gross kilesas...and sometimes that is a big Enough.

I do not think the Buddha urged the path only to Ariya.
Remember that many Ariya disciples of the Buddha also had to start practice from somewhere.
The Buddha urged not to follow the way of worldlings because it's the path leads to nowhere.
If non-Ariya disciples (including lay people) made serious determination and follow the Noble Eightfold Path and practice diligently (including meditation), they are ALREADY following the path against the stream of the world.
Metta to all those who are not yet Ariya but on the path to become one.
It seems very difficult but it can be done.
Last edited by nobody12345 on Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A way for inferior people, not superior people

Postby PeterB » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:55 am

No Bodhisattva manque I, but I think I will throw in my lot with the inferior people.
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